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Hi, everyone.

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Thanks for joining us.

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My name is Dave Moss.

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I am Director of

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Investigations at the

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Electronic Frontier Foundation.

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We're going to start with a

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few housekeeping things.

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We'll be recording this

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session and only video of

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our speakers will be included.

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You can join us now in the

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official chat via Twitch at

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EFF.org slash live stream.

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Once again,

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that's EFF.org slash live stream.

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Please feel free to drop

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your questions into the

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chat throughout the program

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and our guests will answer

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as many as they can at the end.

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And if you're comfortable,

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you can type a hello in the

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chat window right now and

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let us know what part of

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the world you're watching from.

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We'd love to know where

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people are coming from for

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these virtual events.

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For those of you who aren't

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familiar with the

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Electronic Frontier Foundation,

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EFF is a nonprofit whose technologists,

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activists and attorneys

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have been fighting for your

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online privacy and free

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speech since nineteen ninety.

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You are the reason that EFF

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can take on this important work.

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So if you'd like to help us

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in this fight to defend

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your digital freedoms,

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please consider donating at

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EFF dot org slash border support.

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That's EFF dot org slash border support.

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Before we get into it with

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our panelists and our host, Matthew,

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I'm just going to take you

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on a quick little

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presentation about EFF's work at the U.S.

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EFF has been doing work on

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the border for quite some time.

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But around twenty nineteen

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and twenty twenty,

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we really started to beef

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up our efforts to research

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what surveillance

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technology was actually

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being deployed at the border.

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We had some big plans in

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twenty twenty to do this

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massive trip along the border.

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But as you know,

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plans changed in twenty

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twenty and we actually had

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to put them off for a little while.

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Didn't stop us researching,

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just stopped us going there in person.

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But starting in twenty twenty two,

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we started doing these

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really in-depth trips along the border.

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Um, we did three main ones.

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Um,

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but as you can see from this map where

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I've mapped out all the

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places that we've been, uh,

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meeting with people,

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whether that's activists or

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journalists or humanitarian groups,

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or even with law enforcement.

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We did site visits to

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surveillance installations,

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surveillance headquarters,

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and we actually just drove

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the border trying to see

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what people are

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encountering in the communities.

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And we've captured most of the border.

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There's still some places we

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need to get to,

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but it's been a pretty

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interesting journey.

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I want to talk about some of

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the outcomes that have come

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from these trips that we've

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taken to the border.

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Right off the bat,

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we had this mission to take

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as many photos as possible

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of surveillance infrastructure.

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And one of the reasons is

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that we noticed that

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researchers and journalists

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are often having to go

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straight to the CBP, to CBP and U.S.

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Border Patrol,

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and getting images from them

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for their stories.

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CBP to control the narrative.

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Sometimes they actually have

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to go pay money to get

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images from Getty from, you know,

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and it's the same images

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over and over again.

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So we wanted to provide, you know,

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an ad to the Wikimedia Commons,

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all of these like resources

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that people can pull from

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in their own research.

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We've also been mapping out

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surveillance along the US-Mexico border.

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So we currently have a map at EFF.org.

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where you can see all of the

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specific locations of

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surveillance towers.

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And as of now,

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I think we have about five

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hundred fifty surveillance

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towers mapped out their

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precise coordinates,

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along with images that you

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can you can click through

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to see what they actually look like.

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But we also have done all

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the license plate readers

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and checkpoints and ports of entry,

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as well as the aerostats

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along the border.

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And these are our spy blinks

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that fly over cities and rural areas.

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We also were a founding

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member of the coalition

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called Migranci Vigilancia.

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This is a group of a lot of organizations.

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It's led by Access Now to

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protect the human rights of

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migrants throughout North

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and South America when it

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comes to digital privacy

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and surveillance.

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And we recently were

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co-authors of a report on

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privacy and displacement for migrants.

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Now,

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one of the things that we've done over

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the years,

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we don't just go to the border.

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We also go to the Border

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Security Expo most years.

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This is like the Comic Con

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of border security.

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They have a huge showroom

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full of all the different

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technologies that tech

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companies are trying to

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sell to border enforcement.

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And we have taken all that

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information over the last

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few years and built a data

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set of the vendors and the materials,

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what they're offering.

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One of the other things that

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we have right now is a zine

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of the various border

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surveillance technologies,

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kind of like a birdwatcher's guide.

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When we would visit the border,

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we have this binder that we

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printed out ourselves of

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all these different

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technologies that we were looking for.

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And every time we met with somebody,

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they were really curious

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about this binder and they

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would flip through it.

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And we realized that needed

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to be a resource that we

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could put into the world.

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And so we have this both in

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English and Spanish.

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And for the first time today,

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we are actually offering

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these hard copies through our EFF store.

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We've given out hundreds of

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these along the border,

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but now you can get one yourself,

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even if you aren't based

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along the border.

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But like all EFF content,

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it is available under the

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Creative Commons license.

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You can find it elsewhere on our website.

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And then finally,

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the reason we're here today

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is to celebrate our new

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exhibit that was installed

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or that was opened just

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yesterday at the historic U.S.

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Immigration Station at Angel

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Island State Park.

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This exhibit,

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which includes a series of

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panels featuring the photos

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we've collected as well as

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imparting the knowledge

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that we've gathered,

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is called Border Surveillance Places,

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People and Technology.

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It covers a whole range of

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facets and layers of technology

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as we've seen along the

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U.S.-Mexico border.

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And this was spearheaded by

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our senior policy analyst, Matthew,

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who's going to be talking

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to you in just a moment.

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And we're just about to get

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into the panel.

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And so with that,

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I'd like to welcome our speakers.

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So first up, we have Matthew Gorglia,

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our senior policy analyst

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here at Electronic Frontier Foundation.

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We have

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Todd Miller,

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co-founder of the Border

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Chronicle and one of my

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heroes when it comes to US

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border surveillance research.

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We have Pedro Rios,

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who's director of the

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American Friends Service Committee, sorry,

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the American Friends

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Service Committee's

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U.S.-Mexico Border Program.

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Definitely one of my go-tos

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on advocacy in this area.

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And then Petra Molnar,

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author of The Walls Have Eyes,

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Surviving Migration in the

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Age of Artificial Intelligence.

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If I didn't have this Mexican background,

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Nogales, U.S.-Mexico Border,

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you would see her book

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right on the shelf behind me.

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And she's also the associate

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director of the Refugee Law Lab.

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take a little step away and

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let Matthew take over the discussion.

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Hi, everybody.

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Thank you for that introduction, Dave,

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and thank you all to our

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wonderful panelists for

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being here and for all you

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viewers tuning in.

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I guess I'd like to jump in

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as soon as we can and start

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by saying you've all been

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studying surveillance and

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the U.S.-Mexico border for

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quite a while now.

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You know, in my other life,

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I am a historian of

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immigration and surveillance and

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policing.

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And so just in your own

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experience in your own lives,

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I was wondering if you

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could give us a kind of

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sense of either continuity

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or change over time since

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you've been working on the

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US Mexico border.

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Have things been changing?

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Is there more continuity that you see?

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It's just the technology

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that evolves or really

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what's what's new and what's not so new,

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I guess.

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And we can we can start with

291
00:08:58,123 --> 00:08:59,945
Pedro and then follow up with Todd.

292
00:09:02,364 --> 00:09:03,504
Thank you, Matthew,

293
00:09:03,524 --> 00:09:04,384
and it's a pleasure to be

294
00:09:04,424 --> 00:09:05,025
here with all of you.

295
00:09:05,885 --> 00:09:07,748
I would say that, you know,

296
00:09:07,768 --> 00:09:09,028
we've gone a long way from

297
00:09:09,269 --> 00:09:10,529
when I started doing some

298
00:09:10,549 --> 00:09:11,289
of this work in the mid

299
00:09:11,350 --> 00:09:13,572
nineties and what would

300
00:09:15,153 --> 00:09:16,573
what one could describe as

301
00:09:16,614 --> 00:09:17,313
being the surveillance

302
00:09:17,333 --> 00:09:18,595
technology at that point

303
00:09:18,735 --> 00:09:20,035
where the ground sensors

304
00:09:20,056 --> 00:09:21,476
that Border Patrol would

305
00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:23,077
use to detect when there

306
00:09:23,118 --> 00:09:25,080
were border crossers in

307
00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:26,780
whatever region that there

308
00:09:26,801 --> 00:09:27,120
might have been.

309
00:09:27,181 --> 00:09:28,022
And some of these ground

310
00:09:28,062 --> 00:09:29,982
sensor technology was placed in both

311
00:09:30,557 --> 00:09:32,239
private and public land.

312
00:09:32,859 --> 00:09:34,679
And so it's a much more

313
00:09:35,019 --> 00:09:36,961
sophisticated endeavor now,

314
00:09:37,860 --> 00:09:39,922
obviously from issues

315
00:09:39,961 --> 00:09:41,263
related to DNA testing of

316
00:09:41,342 --> 00:09:43,443
migrants and to the extent

317
00:09:43,504 --> 00:09:46,164
where the DNA of migrants

318
00:09:46,666 --> 00:09:47,525
that's shared nationally

319
00:09:47,546 --> 00:09:48,706
with law enforcement in

320
00:09:48,765 --> 00:09:51,067
their database highly

321
00:09:51,107 --> 00:09:52,327
surpasses the number of

322
00:09:52,768 --> 00:09:53,788
people that were already

323
00:09:54,950 --> 00:09:55,809
in that database.

324
00:09:56,510 --> 00:09:58,572
The question that I like to

325
00:09:58,673 --> 00:10:00,214
explore more in the city

326
00:10:00,234 --> 00:10:01,875
where I live is the

327
00:10:02,115 --> 00:10:03,878
spillover of surveillance

328
00:10:03,898 --> 00:10:05,519
technologies into local

329
00:10:05,558 --> 00:10:07,801
jurisdictions and how local

330
00:10:07,821 --> 00:10:09,442
jurisdictions have adopted

331
00:10:10,302 --> 00:10:11,504
surveillance technologies as

332
00:10:11,524 --> 00:10:13,625
a way to define what they

333
00:10:13,664 --> 00:10:15,485
see as smart city progress.

334
00:10:15,946 --> 00:10:18,326
And that has been a lot of crossover,

335
00:10:18,407 --> 00:10:19,327
especially when there is

336
00:10:19,368 --> 00:10:20,508
sharing of information,

337
00:10:21,068 --> 00:10:21,769
whether it's done

338
00:10:21,828 --> 00:10:22,950
intentionally or whether

339
00:10:23,009 --> 00:10:24,630
it's an innocuous type of

340
00:10:24,650 --> 00:10:26,491
sharing of information with

341
00:10:27,011 --> 00:10:28,272
federal immigration agents,

342
00:10:28,371 --> 00:10:29,633
as occurred in the city where I live,

343
00:10:29,753 --> 00:10:30,793
the city of Chula Vista,

344
00:10:31,234 --> 00:10:32,434
which has been described as

345
00:10:32,514 --> 00:10:33,414
one of the most surveilled

346
00:10:33,455 --> 00:10:37,236
in the United States.

347
00:10:37,256 --> 00:10:38,477
Yeah.

348
00:10:38,518 --> 00:10:39,018
Thank you, Todd.

349
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,081
yeah um yeah thanks uh and I

350
00:10:44,101 --> 00:10:45,423
just wanted to say quickly

351
00:10:45,462 --> 00:10:46,844
you know that just watching

352
00:10:46,864 --> 00:10:48,605
how much eff has done on

353
00:10:48,825 --> 00:10:49,926
this border on border

354
00:10:49,946 --> 00:10:50,986
surveillance has just been

355
00:10:51,027 --> 00:10:52,246
amazing it's been amazing

356
00:10:52,287 --> 00:10:52,827
work that I've been

357
00:10:52,868 --> 00:10:54,509
referencing for such a long

358
00:10:54,568 --> 00:10:56,149
time and it's such an honor

359
00:10:56,169 --> 00:10:57,230
to be with all of you

360
00:10:57,331 --> 00:10:59,831
matthew pedro and petra um

361
00:10:59,991 --> 00:11:01,873
all heroes of mine and dave

362
00:11:01,932 --> 00:11:03,134
too he's off in the

363
00:11:03,173 --> 00:11:05,515
background now um yeah I've

364
00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:07,716
uh just to piggyback off

365
00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:09,158
what taylor was saying um

366
00:11:10,057 --> 00:11:11,998
I've been looking at,

367
00:11:12,618 --> 00:11:14,418
I think I first came to the

368
00:11:14,458 --> 00:11:17,500
Nogales border in,

369
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,081
which is the year after

370
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:21,282
Operation Safeguard,

371
00:11:21,461 --> 00:11:22,822
which is basically your operation,

372
00:11:22,881 --> 00:11:25,283
gatekeeper operation, hold the line,

373
00:11:25,442 --> 00:11:26,423
those operations of the

374
00:11:26,464 --> 00:11:28,085
nineties of the Clinton administration.

375
00:11:28,684 --> 00:11:31,806
And, you know, seeing some of the first,

376
00:11:32,086 --> 00:11:32,346
you know,

377
00:11:32,426 --> 00:11:35,227
remnants of the model that we have now,

378
00:11:35,268 --> 00:11:37,008
the deterrence model and

379
00:11:37,048 --> 00:11:38,469
how it was built up

380
00:11:38,942 --> 00:11:41,023
from there you know like the

381
00:11:41,083 --> 00:11:42,884
wall building that you

382
00:11:43,044 --> 00:11:44,546
you'd see in the in the

383
00:11:44,885 --> 00:11:46,366
nineties and and the

384
00:11:46,827 --> 00:11:48,028
increasing personnel and

385
00:11:48,048 --> 00:11:48,788
putting them right on the

386
00:11:48,828 --> 00:11:50,149
border and also um

387
00:11:50,269 --> 00:11:52,250
technology was the third

388
00:11:52,311 --> 00:11:54,052
prong of this enforcement

389
00:11:54,092 --> 00:11:55,634
apparatus and just

390
00:11:55,673 --> 00:11:58,855
following you know how this has uh

391
00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:02,623
over the arc of what now what's it been?

392
00:12:02,663 --> 00:12:03,923
Thirty, thirty year.

393
00:12:03,984 --> 00:12:04,884
I think it's thirty years

394
00:12:04,924 --> 00:12:06,066
since Operation Gatekeeper

395
00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:08,869
on that anniversary, quote unquote,

396
00:12:08,889 --> 00:12:10,409
was in October.

397
00:12:11,451 --> 00:12:14,854
The the just I think often like

398
00:12:15,234 --> 00:12:16,575
You can look at it or you

399
00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:17,255
can just look at the

400
00:12:17,275 --> 00:12:18,417
budgets and the budgets

401
00:12:19,217 --> 00:12:22,081
tell a story that sometimes

402
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,403
get missed in the national

403
00:12:24,423 --> 00:12:25,663
discourse around the border.

404
00:12:26,024 --> 00:12:26,945
And if you go back to like,

405
00:12:26,985 --> 00:12:28,245
nineteen ninety four, you know,

406
00:12:28,285 --> 00:12:29,226
you see a one point five

407
00:12:29,287 --> 00:12:31,208
billion dollar budget for

408
00:12:31,249 --> 00:12:32,850
border and immigration enforcement.

409
00:12:33,464 --> 00:12:35,885
And then you come to last year,

410
00:12:35,926 --> 00:12:36,807
two thousand twenty four,

411
00:12:36,886 --> 00:12:38,408
and it was over thirty billion dollars.

412
00:12:39,168 --> 00:12:40,629
If you look at Customs and

413
00:12:40,669 --> 00:12:41,971
Border Protection and

414
00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:42,932
Immigration and Customs

415
00:12:42,971 --> 00:12:44,653
Enforcement and those combined budgets.

416
00:12:45,053 --> 00:12:47,395
So looking over the span of

417
00:12:47,495 --> 00:12:49,557
the operations under in the

418
00:12:49,597 --> 00:12:51,119
nineties and then the post

419
00:12:51,158 --> 00:12:52,419
nine eleven and Department

420
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,000
of Homeland Security and

421
00:12:54,020 --> 00:12:55,702
the implementation of

422
00:12:56,943 --> 00:12:58,725
SBINet or the Secure Border

423
00:12:58,745 --> 00:12:59,566
Initiative and the

424
00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:01,807
technology programs and

425
00:13:02,441 --> 00:13:04,102
the quote unquote virtual

426
00:13:04,163 --> 00:13:05,365
wall and the sort of

427
00:13:05,424 --> 00:13:07,067
intensification of

428
00:13:07,126 --> 00:13:09,590
contracts over the span of years,

429
00:13:10,530 --> 00:13:12,774
I think tells a pretty huge story.

430
00:13:13,193 --> 00:13:15,256
And one last point I wanna

431
00:13:15,297 --> 00:13:17,438
make on this is also that

432
00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:20,062
You'll see that technology

433
00:13:20,562 --> 00:13:22,202
is sometimes contextualized

434
00:13:22,243 --> 00:13:23,764
as the quote-unquote humane

435
00:13:23,825 --> 00:13:26,326
approach to border enforcement.

436
00:13:26,746 --> 00:13:27,847
And it's anything but.

437
00:13:27,908 --> 00:13:30,190
In fact,

438
00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:32,831
you could argue it's worse than a wall,

439
00:13:32,871 --> 00:13:33,832
but I'm not going to argue

440
00:13:33,852 --> 00:13:34,232
that right now.

441
00:13:34,253 --> 00:13:35,073
I'm just going to say it's

442
00:13:35,134 --> 00:13:36,554
part of the wall, right?

443
00:13:36,695 --> 00:13:38,796
And when you look at how

444
00:13:38,937 --> 00:13:40,177
it's even put by Border Patrol,

445
00:13:40,977 --> 00:13:43,240
they have the wall, the agents,

446
00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:45,662
and technology work hand in hand.

447
00:13:46,224 --> 00:13:47,445
the same sort of enforcement

448
00:13:47,485 --> 00:13:49,066
apparatus and you can kind

449
00:13:49,105 --> 00:13:51,989
of see that taking place uh

450
00:13:52,089 --> 00:14:00,875
right now thank you and

451
00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:02,157
perhaps just just to add

452
00:14:02,177 --> 00:14:03,317
briefly and and just to

453
00:14:03,378 --> 00:14:05,200
echo also uh what what todd

454
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:06,179
said it's been really

455
00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:07,500
amazing to watch the work

456
00:14:07,542 --> 00:14:08,942
of eff over the last few

457
00:14:09,003 --> 00:14:09,822
years I would say

458
00:14:09,842 --> 00:14:10,964
particularly I want to

459
00:14:11,004 --> 00:14:12,706
highlight the visual elements of it

460
00:14:13,666 --> 00:14:15,626
both from an evidentiary perspective,

461
00:14:15,667 --> 00:14:17,447
but also I think what

462
00:14:17,467 --> 00:14:18,109
you're doing with this

463
00:14:18,168 --> 00:14:19,168
exhibit is brilliant

464
00:14:19,229 --> 00:14:19,869
because you're really

465
00:14:19,928 --> 00:14:21,309
bringing it into the

466
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:22,471
community for people to

467
00:14:22,551 --> 00:14:24,011
engage with in a different

468
00:14:24,052 --> 00:14:25,852
way than perhaps they do

469
00:14:25,893 --> 00:14:27,092
with a book or an article.

470
00:14:27,153 --> 00:14:28,494
So really it's been

471
00:14:28,533 --> 00:14:30,315
wonderful to get to know

472
00:14:30,355 --> 00:14:31,414
you and to be in this

473
00:14:31,455 --> 00:14:32,336
conversation with you.

474
00:14:33,515 --> 00:14:35,277
I just wanted to add a bit

475
00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:37,158
to what Pedro and Todd have said.

476
00:14:38,846 --> 00:14:39,245
And, you know,

477
00:14:39,265 --> 00:14:40,167
I think history is so

478
00:14:40,206 --> 00:14:42,509
important in these conversations because,

479
00:14:42,528 --> 00:14:42,828
of course,

480
00:14:42,869 --> 00:14:44,910
we've been tracking this arc of

481
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:46,432
this exponential increase

482
00:14:46,472 --> 00:14:47,994
of border technologies and

483
00:14:48,693 --> 00:14:49,455
the kind of growing

484
00:14:49,495 --> 00:14:51,657
violence as a result of so

485
00:14:51,677 --> 00:14:52,778
many of these high risk

486
00:14:52,837 --> 00:14:53,979
experimental projects.

487
00:14:54,038 --> 00:14:55,620
But at the end of the day,

488
00:14:55,941 --> 00:14:56,961
borders since their

489
00:14:56,980 --> 00:14:57,841
inception have been

490
00:14:57,881 --> 00:14:59,043
historically violent and

491
00:14:59,283 --> 00:15:00,804
they're predicated on power

492
00:15:00,845 --> 00:15:02,986
differentials and politics

493
00:15:03,027 --> 00:15:04,126
of exclusion and

494
00:15:04,168 --> 00:15:06,590
marginalization and systemic racism and

495
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:08,870
ultimately about making

496
00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:10,472
determinations about who is

497
00:15:10,673 --> 00:15:13,195
a worthy person to enter versus not.

498
00:15:13,315 --> 00:15:15,476
And technologies are an

499
00:15:15,537 --> 00:15:17,018
exacerbation of this.

500
00:15:18,158 --> 00:15:20,081
And so I think it's important to,

501
00:15:20,140 --> 00:15:21,081
of course, hold, I think,

502
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:23,582
this present moment in mind, given, again,

503
00:15:23,624 --> 00:15:24,904
this massive

504
00:15:24,945 --> 00:15:26,446
intensification of tech and

505
00:15:26,546 --> 00:15:28,508
money and the border industrial complex.

506
00:15:29,048 --> 00:15:29,889
But at the end of the day,

507
00:15:29,928 --> 00:15:31,830
this is also part of a

508
00:15:31,909 --> 00:15:32,990
series of policies that

509
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:35,033
have been with us for centuries, really.

510
00:15:36,474 --> 00:15:37,014
Yeah, thank you.

511
00:15:37,034 --> 00:15:37,956
That is such a good point.

512
00:15:37,995 --> 00:15:40,918
The border is itself a kind of technology,

513
00:15:40,958 --> 00:15:41,119
right?

514
00:15:41,158 --> 00:15:42,341
It is something that creates

515
00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:44,243
categories of belonging and

516
00:15:44,302 --> 00:15:45,903
not belonging in and out,

517
00:15:46,524 --> 00:15:48,287
which then by their very

518
00:15:48,307 --> 00:15:49,528
nature have to be kind of

519
00:15:49,668 --> 00:15:51,730
enforced if they mean anything.

520
00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:53,432
That's a very good point.

521
00:15:53,451 --> 00:15:55,474
And so I guess the question is like,

522
00:15:55,514 --> 00:15:57,154
let's get into the technology.

523
00:15:57,535 --> 00:15:58,235
One of the things that

524
00:15:58,316 --> 00:16:00,618
motivated our team here at

525
00:16:00,677 --> 00:16:02,200
EFF was just when we got to

526
00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:03,139
the border and we could see

527
00:16:03,179 --> 00:16:04,061
just how many different

528
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,783
types of technologies there are.

529
00:16:05,802 --> 00:16:07,464
And it inspired the great

530
00:16:07,504 --> 00:16:09,426
zine Dave was talking about.

531
00:16:09,745 --> 00:16:10,346
It inspired,

532
00:16:10,386 --> 00:16:11,567
we have a very big panel in

533
00:16:11,607 --> 00:16:12,828
the exhibit called the

534
00:16:12,869 --> 00:16:14,049
Taxonomy of Border

535
00:16:14,070 --> 00:16:15,530
Surveillance that kind of goes through

536
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:17,370
some of the key categories

537
00:16:17,390 --> 00:16:18,532
and types of surveillance

538
00:16:18,552 --> 00:16:19,412
you're likely to see.

539
00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:20,451
So I was wondering if you

540
00:16:20,471 --> 00:16:21,812
could talk about not just

541
00:16:21,831 --> 00:16:23,432
the kind of diversity of

542
00:16:23,633 --> 00:16:26,192
actual devices that you can see, you know,

543
00:16:26,253 --> 00:16:28,673
within sometimes a hundred

544
00:16:28,714 --> 00:16:30,374
miles of the US-Mexico border,

545
00:16:31,073 --> 00:16:34,095
but also the overlapping jurisdictions,

546
00:16:34,195 --> 00:16:34,375
right?

547
00:16:34,394 --> 00:16:35,414
Because, you know,

548
00:16:35,455 --> 00:16:37,215
sometimes when you see a device,

549
00:16:37,235 --> 00:16:38,535
you don't really know who

550
00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:39,316
has deployed it.

551
00:16:39,395 --> 00:16:40,375
Is it county?

552
00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:41,096
Is it local?

553
00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:41,855
Is it state?

554
00:16:41,936 --> 00:16:42,756
Is it federal?

555
00:16:43,057 --> 00:16:44,677
Is it vigilante even?

556
00:16:45,538 --> 00:16:46,698
And so I was wondering if we

557
00:16:46,739 --> 00:16:48,542
could open up the floor

558
00:16:48,581 --> 00:16:49,342
here to talk a little bit

559
00:16:49,383 --> 00:16:52,547
about the diversity of not

560
00:16:52,567 --> 00:16:54,910
just devices and what they do,

561
00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:56,692
but also the diversity of

562
00:16:56,932 --> 00:16:58,475
agencies and bureaus that

563
00:16:58,495 --> 00:17:00,217
have put out those bureaucracies.

564
00:17:00,278 --> 00:17:01,559
Let's start with you, Petra.

565
00:17:04,833 --> 00:17:05,252
Sure.

566
00:17:05,792 --> 00:17:05,972
I mean,

567
00:17:06,034 --> 00:17:07,634
I think the way you're describing

568
00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:08,654
it really highlights that

569
00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:10,494
this is an ecosystem of so

570
00:17:10,535 --> 00:17:12,056
many different players that

571
00:17:12,215 --> 00:17:14,017
are involved in normalizing

572
00:17:14,076 --> 00:17:15,856
technology and presenting

573
00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:16,897
it as a solution to the

574
00:17:16,938 --> 00:17:18,337
so-called problem of migration.

575
00:17:18,439 --> 00:17:19,538
We're not just talking about

576
00:17:20,078 --> 00:17:22,319
public sector entities,

577
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,800
but also the private sector,

578
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:24,721
which is a major,

579
00:17:24,921 --> 00:17:26,701
major player in all of this.

580
00:17:27,442 --> 00:17:28,262
And also,

581
00:17:28,803 --> 00:17:30,064
I think a lot of it has to do

582
00:17:30,084 --> 00:17:30,785
with the fact that,

583
00:17:30,805 --> 00:17:31,766
and I will get into this a

584
00:17:31,786 --> 00:17:32,547
little bit later,

585
00:17:32,707 --> 00:17:33,867
and I know we're focusing

586
00:17:33,887 --> 00:17:36,569
on the US-Mexico context particularly,

587
00:17:36,589 --> 00:17:37,290
but this is also a

588
00:17:37,371 --> 00:17:38,731
transnational and a global

589
00:17:38,771 --> 00:17:40,252
issue with transnational

590
00:17:40,272 --> 00:17:42,075
players that are really

591
00:17:42,515 --> 00:17:43,576
setting the agenda and

592
00:17:43,615 --> 00:17:44,777
setting the stage in terms

593
00:17:44,817 --> 00:17:46,538
of what we innovate on and why.

594
00:17:47,338 --> 00:17:48,359
And in terms of the kind of

595
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,721
taxonomy of technologies,

596
00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:51,383
I'm sure Todd and Pedro can

597
00:17:51,423 --> 00:17:52,763
speak to the specificities

598
00:17:52,903 --> 00:17:53,944
much more than I can.

599
00:17:54,505 --> 00:17:55,365
But it is a class of

600
00:17:55,425 --> 00:17:56,707
technologies that cross

601
00:17:56,747 --> 00:17:58,848
cuts the type of

602
00:17:58,929 --> 00:17:59,950
traditional surveillance

603
00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:02,352
that maybe people can think of drones,

604
00:18:02,432 --> 00:18:03,553
blimps, cameras.

605
00:18:04,133 --> 00:18:06,695
But it's also more experimental projects.

606
00:18:07,375 --> 00:18:09,178
We've heard of RoboDogs, for example,

607
00:18:09,198 --> 00:18:10,118
that were announced a few

608
00:18:10,159 --> 00:18:11,339
years ago by the Department

609
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:12,421
of Homeland Security.

610
00:18:12,862 --> 00:18:13,761
But also things that are a

611
00:18:13,781 --> 00:18:15,604
little bit more hidden from view,

612
00:18:15,924 --> 00:18:17,306
a little bit less perhaps

613
00:18:17,506 --> 00:18:18,606
viscerally disturbing,

614
00:18:18,666 --> 00:18:20,148
but equally as important to

615
00:18:20,189 --> 00:18:20,989
pay attention to.

616
00:18:21,369 --> 00:18:22,191
That's things like

617
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:24,752
discrimination through algorithms,

618
00:18:24,813 --> 00:18:25,554
for example,

619
00:18:25,693 --> 00:18:26,974
or using data sets that are

620
00:18:27,015 --> 00:18:28,256
shared indiscriminately.

621
00:18:29,416 --> 00:18:30,497
Sometimes I talk about this

622
00:18:30,517 --> 00:18:31,877
as kind of panopticon of

623
00:18:31,938 --> 00:18:33,577
migration management technologies,

624
00:18:33,637 --> 00:18:34,778
and that's really what it is.

625
00:18:34,798 --> 00:18:36,538
It essentially impacts a

626
00:18:36,598 --> 00:18:38,358
person on the move at every

627
00:18:38,398 --> 00:18:39,940
single juncture of their journey now.

628
00:18:42,059 --> 00:18:42,721
Yeah, Pedro.

629
00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:47,821
Yeah, and I think,

630
00:18:48,102 --> 00:18:49,261
and just kind of

631
00:18:49,561 --> 00:18:50,462
piggybacking a little bit

632
00:18:50,542 --> 00:18:51,823
on the violence that

633
00:18:52,619 --> 00:18:53,641
all the different types of

634
00:18:54,221 --> 00:18:55,622
surveillance systems cause.

635
00:18:56,242 --> 00:18:58,763
I reflect on the study that

636
00:18:58,804 --> 00:19:00,346
researchers did about the

637
00:19:01,685 --> 00:19:02,646
implementation of certain

638
00:19:02,666 --> 00:19:03,948
surveillance cameras along

639
00:19:04,228 --> 00:19:06,190
the border in Arizona and

640
00:19:06,210 --> 00:19:07,711
the tracking of migration

641
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:09,491
routes and how that's

642
00:19:09,852 --> 00:19:12,054
tended to push people into

643
00:19:12,153 --> 00:19:14,134
much more remote desert

644
00:19:14,174 --> 00:19:15,816
terrains where the

645
00:19:16,016 --> 00:19:18,317
migration seemed to even

646
00:19:18,357 --> 00:19:19,538
take many more days and

647
00:19:19,942 --> 00:19:22,564
which caused a lot more loss of life.

648
00:19:23,084 --> 00:19:24,064
And so when we're

649
00:19:24,183 --> 00:19:25,943
considering what is much

650
00:19:26,064 --> 00:19:27,924
more visible out in the

651
00:19:27,964 --> 00:19:29,384
field of surveillance cameras,

652
00:19:29,404 --> 00:19:31,545
for instance, or towers,

653
00:19:31,766 --> 00:19:34,546
both mobile and the ones that are fixed,

654
00:19:35,326 --> 00:19:41,468
cause this omnipresent presence,

655
00:19:41,548 --> 00:19:43,607
for lack of a better way of describing it,

656
00:19:44,248 --> 00:19:46,048
of technologies that are

657
00:19:46,729 --> 00:19:47,929
constantly surveying

658
00:19:48,615 --> 00:19:48,994
people.

659
00:19:49,355 --> 00:19:50,256
And there have been,

660
00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:52,657
especially in southern Arizona,

661
00:19:52,837 --> 00:19:53,877
communities that have

662
00:19:53,998 --> 00:19:55,960
complained about being

663
00:19:56,019 --> 00:19:56,940
under watch of these

664
00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:59,362
surveillance towers and not

665
00:19:59,422 --> 00:20:00,522
knowing what sort of

666
00:20:01,303 --> 00:20:03,384
technology is being or what

667
00:20:03,403 --> 00:20:04,444
sort of data sets are being

668
00:20:05,125 --> 00:20:07,146
captured and for how long

669
00:20:07,186 --> 00:20:09,208
those data sets are being retained.

670
00:20:09,248 --> 00:20:12,009
And so along with what appears,

671
00:20:13,651 --> 00:20:16,972
what's visibly available for one to

672
00:20:17,833 --> 00:20:18,972
to be cognizant of,

673
00:20:19,253 --> 00:20:21,193
the retention period

674
00:20:21,673 --> 00:20:23,315
oftentimes is a problem as well.

675
00:20:23,634 --> 00:20:24,434
What gets captured?

676
00:20:24,494 --> 00:20:27,435
Who has access to those data sets?

677
00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:29,436
And for what purpose are they being used?

678
00:20:29,497 --> 00:20:31,238
We've learned in the past of

679
00:20:31,938 --> 00:20:33,597
data sets that ICE has held

680
00:20:34,098 --> 00:20:35,499
that have been breached and

681
00:20:35,538 --> 00:20:37,380
that information then,

682
00:20:37,420 --> 00:20:38,839
very sensitive information

683
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:39,921
then is available to

684
00:20:41,141 --> 00:20:42,741
private individuals or

685
00:20:42,801 --> 00:20:46,742
private enterprises that might have other

686
00:20:47,726 --> 00:20:49,006
intentions for the use of

687
00:20:49,026 --> 00:20:49,826
that information.

688
00:20:50,386 --> 00:20:53,508
And I think looking at the

689
00:20:53,528 --> 00:20:54,807
question of future use of

690
00:20:54,827 --> 00:20:57,828
these data sets raises a

691
00:20:57,929 --> 00:20:59,788
lot more alarm for me,

692
00:21:00,249 --> 00:21:01,410
considering that the

693
00:21:01,490 --> 00:21:03,049
evolution of the technology

694
00:21:03,569 --> 00:21:05,070
is moving at a much more

695
00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:07,651
faster speed than any type

696
00:21:07,711 --> 00:21:11,772
of protections that we

697
00:21:11,813 --> 00:21:13,173
might want to have both under

698
00:21:13,894 --> 00:21:15,176
constitutional protections

699
00:21:15,237 --> 00:21:16,218
or civil rights or just

700
00:21:16,719 --> 00:21:23,406
simply questions around privacy.

701
00:21:23,507 --> 00:21:24,607
Yeah.

702
00:21:24,868 --> 00:21:25,549
Todd?

703
00:21:25,589 --> 00:21:27,811
Yeah, I remember, Matt,

704
00:21:29,094 --> 00:21:30,695
when you were in Nogales and

705
00:21:31,996 --> 00:21:33,817
I do believe the aerostat

706
00:21:34,017 --> 00:21:37,258
was up and running and it's

707
00:21:37,377 --> 00:21:39,179
complete omnipresence.

708
00:21:39,878 --> 00:21:41,200
You couldn't avoid, you know,

709
00:21:41,339 --> 00:21:42,621
when there's an aerostat or

710
00:21:42,681 --> 00:21:43,780
one of those surveillance blimps,

711
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,281
you just, it's always watched.

712
00:21:46,321 --> 00:21:47,321
Or at least the feeling,

713
00:21:47,502 --> 00:21:48,303
like Pedro was saying,

714
00:21:48,343 --> 00:21:50,923
of always being watched is

715
00:21:51,423 --> 00:21:53,444
And they eventually got rid of that.

716
00:21:53,605 --> 00:21:53,965
In fact,

717
00:21:54,046 --> 00:21:55,768
even the sheriff in Santa Cruz

718
00:21:56,147 --> 00:21:57,930
County was against that

719
00:21:58,891 --> 00:21:59,711
surveillance blimp.

720
00:22:00,071 --> 00:22:00,913
But also remember,

721
00:22:02,162 --> 00:22:03,041
There was a request for

722
00:22:03,122 --> 00:22:04,863
proposals and I think it

723
00:22:04,883 --> 00:22:05,903
was in two thousand

724
00:22:05,942 --> 00:22:07,702
eighteen that I just copy

725
00:22:08,343 --> 00:22:11,364
caught my eye and it was a

726
00:22:11,423 --> 00:22:13,144
request for proposals for a drone,

727
00:22:13,845 --> 00:22:15,845
a medium sized drone that

728
00:22:16,164 --> 00:22:18,066
was silent and also had

729
00:22:18,105 --> 00:22:19,425
facial recognition cameras

730
00:22:19,465 --> 00:22:20,306
so it could come down and

731
00:22:20,326 --> 00:22:21,806
take pictures of people's

732
00:22:21,865 --> 00:22:23,626
faces without them knowing.

733
00:22:24,207 --> 00:22:25,688
now I never never I've tried

734
00:22:25,708 --> 00:22:26,808
to follow that story I saw

735
00:22:26,828 --> 00:22:27,990
the request for proposals

736
00:22:28,049 --> 00:22:28,990
and then I knew that there

737
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:30,691
were companies going there

738
00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:32,353
to to test some things out

739
00:22:32,393 --> 00:22:34,933
but I I've lost the thread

740
00:22:34,953 --> 00:22:36,194
of that story or whether

741
00:22:36,234 --> 00:22:37,175
there's such a thing that

742
00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:40,337
exists I'm not sure um and

743
00:22:40,958 --> 00:22:42,519
and also uh you know just

744
00:22:42,538 --> 00:22:43,700
to think of the

745
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,260
crisscrossing jurisdictions

746
00:22:45,882 --> 00:22:47,863
um I I remember I went in

747
00:22:48,432 --> 00:22:50,454
Like, I think Petra, you know,

748
00:22:50,515 --> 00:22:52,836
described it well in this ecosystem,

749
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:54,336
but it seems like it's an

750
00:22:54,416 --> 00:22:56,519
ecosystem that's mainly

751
00:22:56,558 --> 00:22:58,079
directed from the federal government,

752
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,400
you know,

753
00:22:58,420 --> 00:22:59,480
when the federal government

754
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:00,741
always lays the claim on

755
00:23:02,384 --> 00:23:04,885
They're in charge of border enforcement.

756
00:23:05,046 --> 00:23:07,047
But I do remember I was in

757
00:23:07,146 --> 00:23:08,926
Yuma and I was able to get

758
00:23:09,007 --> 00:23:10,508
access to their documents

759
00:23:10,528 --> 00:23:11,647
of Operation Stone Garden.

760
00:23:11,688 --> 00:23:12,708
And that's Department of

761
00:23:12,728 --> 00:23:13,749
Homeland Security money

762
00:23:14,108 --> 00:23:16,229
that they get for doing

763
00:23:16,249 --> 00:23:17,789
border surveillance.

764
00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:18,890
And it was interesting to

765
00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:20,631
watch what the Yuma Police

766
00:23:20,651 --> 00:23:22,570
Department was doing that

767
00:23:22,691 --> 00:23:24,451
in terms of they were saying, oh,

768
00:23:24,471 --> 00:23:25,652
we went to the swap meet

769
00:23:25,912 --> 00:23:27,173
and we're looking for people there.

770
00:23:27,192 --> 00:23:28,752
We went to the arroyo or the

771
00:23:28,893 --> 00:23:30,653
wash and we're looking for people there.

772
00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:33,308
You know, and then they said, oh,

773
00:23:33,449 --> 00:23:34,809
and we requested this

774
00:23:34,849 --> 00:23:36,070
technology because there's

775
00:23:36,151 --> 00:23:38,212
money for technologies.

776
00:23:38,252 --> 00:23:39,753
And apparently, you know,

777
00:23:40,755 --> 00:23:42,655
the police department and

778
00:23:42,675 --> 00:23:43,436
the federal government or

779
00:23:43,477 --> 00:23:45,459
CBP was going to work hand in hand.

780
00:23:46,038 --> 00:23:48,441
And then the other thing is Lone Star,

781
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:48,740
right?

782
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,442
You look at Operation Lone Star.

783
00:23:51,202 --> 00:23:52,624
And for the years of the

784
00:23:52,644 --> 00:23:53,664
four years of Biden,

785
00:23:53,704 --> 00:23:55,247
it was over in direct

786
00:23:55,666 --> 00:23:57,048
confrontation with the

787
00:23:57,167 --> 00:23:57,969
federal government.

788
00:23:58,429 --> 00:23:59,910
But I was I wonder, like,

789
00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:00,611
how much is that?

790
00:24:01,048 --> 00:24:03,130
true you know just going

791
00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:04,250
down and being spending

792
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:05,271
some time on the Texas

793
00:24:05,311 --> 00:24:08,094
border and on like watching

794
00:24:08,134 --> 00:24:09,034
like on the Rio Grande and

795
00:24:09,054 --> 00:24:10,454
the Rio Grande Valley just

796
00:24:10,494 --> 00:24:12,175
watching patrol boats of

797
00:24:12,215 --> 00:24:13,257
the state government of the

798
00:24:13,277 --> 00:24:14,538
National Guard of the U.S.

799
00:24:14,597 --> 00:24:15,778
Border Patrol of the Coast

800
00:24:15,818 --> 00:24:18,220
Guard of the Texas Wildlife

801
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,662
Service of the Florida State Police

802
00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:21,699
Yeah,

803
00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:23,784
all of them doing like patrols down

804
00:24:23,804 --> 00:24:24,525
the Rio Grande.

805
00:24:25,426 --> 00:24:27,289
The idea of who's doing what

806
00:24:27,371 --> 00:24:28,512
right now seems to be

807
00:24:29,114 --> 00:24:30,576
massively jumbled and the

808
00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:33,563
ecosystem is a bit all over the place.

809
00:24:35,402 --> 00:24:35,721
Yeah,

810
00:24:36,343 --> 00:24:38,144
and to build on something that you've

811
00:24:38,204 --> 00:24:39,786
all brought up already,

812
00:24:41,047 --> 00:24:42,167
the surveillance isn't a

813
00:24:42,208 --> 00:24:44,569
kind of philosophical harm, right?

814
00:24:44,650 --> 00:24:46,291
It is like not just, uh-oh,

815
00:24:46,412 --> 00:24:47,432
I'm being watched.

816
00:24:48,333 --> 00:24:51,276
It has real-world manifest harms involved.

817
00:24:51,635 --> 00:24:52,717
up until death.

818
00:24:53,238 --> 00:24:54,117
And I was wondering if you

819
00:24:54,138 --> 00:24:55,420
could all elaborate a

820
00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:57,260
little bit on the kind of

821
00:24:57,422 --> 00:24:59,303
real-world harms that are

822
00:24:59,363 --> 00:25:01,325
happening because of this

823
00:25:01,444 --> 00:25:02,626
massive buildup of

824
00:25:02,686 --> 00:25:03,807
infrastructure of surveillance,

825
00:25:04,407 --> 00:25:05,829
not just on the U.S.-Mexico border,

826
00:25:05,849 --> 00:25:07,310
but to bring in some of

827
00:25:07,351 --> 00:25:09,173
Petra's international work as well,

828
00:25:09,992 --> 00:25:10,493
but some of the

829
00:25:10,534 --> 00:25:11,714
surveillance that's being

830
00:25:11,755 --> 00:25:13,477
deployed in Southern Europe as well.

831
00:25:14,257 --> 00:25:15,719
Let's maybe start with Petra.

832
00:25:18,529 --> 00:25:19,170
Yeah, thanks.

833
00:25:19,290 --> 00:25:20,010
Thanks for asking that

834
00:25:20,050 --> 00:25:21,731
question because I think it's, you know,

835
00:25:21,751 --> 00:25:22,613
it's important to try and

836
00:25:22,653 --> 00:25:23,932
understand the actors and

837
00:25:24,034 --> 00:25:25,433
ecosystem and power.

838
00:25:25,795 --> 00:25:26,974
But at the end of the day,

839
00:25:27,175 --> 00:25:28,797
these technologies have

840
00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:30,377
real impact on people on

841
00:25:30,397 --> 00:25:32,199
the move and on communities.

842
00:25:33,134 --> 00:25:33,334
you know,

843
00:25:33,374 --> 00:25:34,654
whether we wanna analyze it from

844
00:25:34,694 --> 00:25:36,654
a human rights perspective and look at,

845
00:25:36,694 --> 00:25:36,974
you know,

846
00:25:37,015 --> 00:25:38,615
the infringements to the rights

847
00:25:38,675 --> 00:25:40,155
of privacy, for example,

848
00:25:40,215 --> 00:25:41,636
and sensitive data is being

849
00:25:41,696 --> 00:25:42,737
shared with repressive

850
00:25:42,777 --> 00:25:44,617
governments or the

851
00:25:44,637 --> 00:25:45,518
discrimination that's

852
00:25:45,557 --> 00:25:46,979
inherent in so many of the

853
00:25:47,058 --> 00:25:48,098
algorithms or facial

854
00:25:48,138 --> 00:25:49,940
recognition that states are using.

855
00:25:50,819 --> 00:25:51,921
Or perhaps most sharply,

856
00:25:51,961 --> 00:25:53,903
as Pedro already alluded to,

857
00:25:54,022 --> 00:25:55,285
the loss of life at the

858
00:25:55,325 --> 00:25:56,726
border as a result of these

859
00:25:56,766 --> 00:25:58,468
surveillance dragnets that

860
00:25:58,508 --> 00:26:01,210
instead of preventing people from coming,

861
00:26:01,289 --> 00:26:02,592
as states like to say,

862
00:26:02,672 --> 00:26:03,813
they push people into life

863
00:26:03,833 --> 00:26:04,634
threatening terrain,

864
00:26:05,034 --> 00:26:06,214
both in the Sonora Desert

865
00:26:06,255 --> 00:26:07,656
and at the US-Mexico border.

866
00:26:07,717 --> 00:26:08,636
But also we're seeing

867
00:26:08,698 --> 00:26:10,638
similar trends in the Mediterranean Sea,

868
00:26:10,679 --> 00:26:11,359
for example,

869
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:12,780
as people are making their

870
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,084
way into European territory.

871
00:26:15,564 --> 00:26:16,505
or even along the land

872
00:26:16,525 --> 00:26:17,987
border of Evros between

873
00:26:18,047 --> 00:26:18,949
Greece and Turkey.

874
00:26:20,029 --> 00:26:20,471
In my work,

875
00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:21,592
I've been trying to take a

876
00:26:21,632 --> 00:26:23,314
global perspective and I've

877
00:26:23,334 --> 00:26:24,335
been really lucky to be

878
00:26:24,355 --> 00:26:26,337
able to work and sometimes

879
00:26:26,377 --> 00:26:28,240
even live in places where a

880
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,442
lot of this tech is being

881
00:26:29,501 --> 00:26:30,442
experimented with.

882
00:26:31,431 --> 00:26:32,971
You know, absolutely, Matthew,

883
00:26:33,291 --> 00:26:34,711
it's a global phenomenon

884
00:26:34,872 --> 00:26:38,192
where the impact of this

885
00:26:38,353 --> 00:26:41,354
tech is felt on virtually

886
00:26:41,453 --> 00:26:43,515
every aspect of the kind of

887
00:26:43,954 --> 00:26:45,154
human rights and the human

888
00:26:45,515 --> 00:26:47,175
gamut of what is happening.

889
00:26:47,675 --> 00:26:49,817
Not to also mention the

890
00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:50,997
conflation of military

891
00:26:51,057 --> 00:26:53,057
technology and the border

892
00:26:53,097 --> 00:26:54,278
industrial complex.

893
00:26:54,377 --> 00:26:55,958
We're oftentimes seeing that

894
00:26:56,057 --> 00:26:57,179
technologies that are

895
00:26:57,239 --> 00:26:59,058
developed for the purposes

896
00:26:59,098 --> 00:27:01,160
of warfare or in the context of

897
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:03,161
context of Israel-Palestine

898
00:27:03,661 --> 00:27:04,842
for the continuation of the

899
00:27:04,882 --> 00:27:06,843
Gaza genocide technologies

900
00:27:06,863 --> 00:27:07,903
which started there and

901
00:27:07,943 --> 00:27:08,864
tested there and then

902
00:27:08,924 --> 00:27:10,204
exported for the purposes

903
00:27:10,244 --> 00:27:12,666
of border control in the

904
00:27:12,707 --> 00:27:14,048
European Union and at the

905
00:27:14,067 --> 00:27:15,008
US-Mexico border.

906
00:27:15,448 --> 00:27:16,709
So it's very important to, I think,

907
00:27:16,769 --> 00:27:18,730
take a broader approach to

908
00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:20,611
these issues and try and

909
00:27:20,671 --> 00:27:22,332
connect these stories

910
00:27:22,853 --> 00:27:24,012
across the world because

911
00:27:24,394 --> 00:27:26,275
the rise of technology

912
00:27:26,315 --> 00:27:27,655
that's harming people is

913
00:27:27,715 --> 00:27:29,596
absolutely a global phenomenon.

914
00:27:31,057 --> 00:27:31,557
Pedro,

915
00:27:31,577 --> 00:27:34,220
do we have a sense of the scale of

916
00:27:34,819 --> 00:27:36,401
harm and death that is

917
00:27:36,421 --> 00:27:38,442
being caused as more and

918
00:27:38,481 --> 00:27:39,561
more towers and more and

919
00:27:39,582 --> 00:27:40,643
more technology goes up and

920
00:27:40,663 --> 00:27:41,923
they're driving people into

921
00:27:41,982 --> 00:27:45,005
more remote parts of the desert?

922
00:27:45,204 --> 00:27:45,865
Yeah, I mean,

923
00:27:45,924 --> 00:27:47,566
I think it's difficult to

924
00:27:47,605 --> 00:27:49,707
really arrive at what those

925
00:27:49,767 --> 00:27:51,028
numbers are and difficult

926
00:27:51,048 --> 00:27:52,028
to make an assessment of

927
00:27:52,548 --> 00:27:54,088
how many people have been harmed.

928
00:27:54,108 --> 00:27:55,210
I mean, I think certainly it

929
00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:57,792
And as Todd alluded to earlier,

930
00:27:57,833 --> 00:27:59,273
this sort of virtual wall

931
00:27:59,314 --> 00:28:00,875
that was being presented,

932
00:28:00,954 --> 00:28:02,316
especially during the Bush years,

933
00:28:02,355 --> 00:28:04,337
that was meant to augment

934
00:28:04,397 --> 00:28:05,798
and be a force multiplier

935
00:28:05,838 --> 00:28:07,500
to the boots on the ground

936
00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:08,580
that Border Patrol has

937
00:28:09,342 --> 00:28:10,423
talked about forever,

938
00:28:10,762 --> 00:28:12,944
post Operation Gatekeeper

939
00:28:12,964 --> 00:28:14,987
in the nineties and the

940
00:28:15,027 --> 00:28:15,987
turn strategy the Border

941
00:28:16,027 --> 00:28:16,928
Patrol depends on.

942
00:28:18,368 --> 00:28:19,450
Certainly I can say that

943
00:28:19,589 --> 00:28:22,031
despite so much dependence

944
00:28:22,051 --> 00:28:24,253
now on surveillance technologies,

945
00:28:24,314 --> 00:28:25,295
we continue to see

946
00:28:25,992 --> 00:28:27,534
record numbers of people

947
00:28:27,594 --> 00:28:29,354
that die as a result of

948
00:28:29,413 --> 00:28:31,174
their attempts of crossing into the U.S.

949
00:28:31,214 --> 00:28:33,056
precisely in part because

950
00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:34,056
they are crossing through

951
00:28:34,175 --> 00:28:35,936
much more remote desert

952
00:28:35,957 --> 00:28:37,458
terrain where the ability

953
00:28:37,478 --> 00:28:39,038
to survive is nearly

954
00:28:39,397 --> 00:28:41,098
impossible in some circumstances.

955
00:28:41,739 --> 00:28:42,539
One point I want to make

956
00:28:42,619 --> 00:28:45,300
also is that it's also, you know,

957
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,780
this culture of dependency

958
00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:48,781
on surveillance technologies also becomes

959
00:28:50,035 --> 00:28:51,236
conveniently used.

960
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:52,817
And so when there is an

961
00:28:52,876 --> 00:28:54,057
instance of someone that

962
00:28:54,117 --> 00:28:56,799
has been accosted by border

963
00:28:56,819 --> 00:28:58,520
patrol agents and there's loss of life,

964
00:28:58,540 --> 00:28:59,382
and I'm thinking of the

965
00:28:59,981 --> 00:29:01,083
case in twenty ten of

966
00:29:01,123 --> 00:29:02,423
Anastasia Hernandez Rojas,

967
00:29:02,463 --> 00:29:03,865
who was beaten by over

968
00:29:04,519 --> 00:29:06,382
twelve agents from Border Patrol,

969
00:29:06,662 --> 00:29:10,006
ICE and OFO that in that case,

970
00:29:10,205 --> 00:29:11,968
in one of the world's most

971
00:29:13,308 --> 00:29:14,451
crossed port of entry,

972
00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:15,672
the San Isidro Port of Entry,

973
00:29:16,051 --> 00:29:17,213
the camera systems

974
00:29:18,134 --> 00:29:19,596
surrounding the border

975
00:29:19,635 --> 00:29:20,616
infrastructure there

976
00:29:21,858 --> 00:29:23,059
seemingly were not working

977
00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:24,040
and were not operating.

978
00:29:24,508 --> 00:29:25,567
or at the very least,

979
00:29:25,627 --> 00:29:27,909
maybe the footage was lost or destroyed.

980
00:29:28,449 --> 00:29:31,009
And so there is this culture

981
00:29:31,069 --> 00:29:32,570
of surveillance that goes

982
00:29:32,590 --> 00:29:33,451
hand in hand with the

983
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:35,131
culture of impunity that

984
00:29:35,171 --> 00:29:36,471
law enforcement agencies

985
00:29:36,872 --> 00:29:38,732
greatly depend on in order

986
00:29:38,792 --> 00:29:42,134
to pursue whatever their goals are,

987
00:29:42,173 --> 00:29:44,815
which in one case, I would argue,

988
00:29:44,994 --> 00:29:46,914
is the trampling of basic

989
00:29:46,954 --> 00:29:48,096
civil rights and

990
00:29:48,455 --> 00:29:49,635
constitutional protections,

991
00:29:50,256 --> 00:29:51,036
especially around the

992
00:29:51,136 --> 00:29:52,376
US-Mexico borderlands.

993
00:29:53,378 --> 00:29:53,459
Yeah.

994
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:54,941
I mean, just to follow up with you,

995
00:29:55,060 --> 00:29:55,800
one more question,

996
00:29:55,881 --> 00:29:57,942
which is what is the impact

997
00:29:57,983 --> 00:29:58,903
of all the surveillance

998
00:29:58,943 --> 00:29:59,944
infrastructure on

999
00:30:00,046 --> 00:30:02,248
communities that are that

1000
00:30:02,347 --> 00:30:03,048
are on the border?

1001
00:30:03,107 --> 00:30:05,351
Because one thing we noticed is, you know,

1002
00:30:05,971 --> 00:30:07,112
I think to some extent,

1003
00:30:07,593 --> 00:30:10,055
people who live far away from the border,

1004
00:30:10,234 --> 00:30:11,135
when they think about the border,

1005
00:30:11,155 --> 00:30:11,936
they think about exactly

1006
00:30:11,957 --> 00:30:12,577
this kind of like.

1007
00:30:13,117 --> 00:30:14,358
remote deserts with

1008
00:30:14,659 --> 00:30:15,559
surveillance towers in it.

1009
00:30:15,579 --> 00:30:17,861
But some of these towers are

1010
00:30:17,941 --> 00:30:19,122
in people's backyards.

1011
00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:20,222
They're in public parks.

1012
00:30:20,262 --> 00:30:22,243
They are in towns.

1013
00:30:22,364 --> 00:30:23,964
And I'm wondering if you

1014
00:30:23,984 --> 00:30:24,905
could talk a little bit

1015
00:30:24,925 --> 00:30:26,227
about what you've seen as

1016
00:30:26,287 --> 00:30:27,748
been some of the impact,

1017
00:30:27,827 --> 00:30:29,848
this impunity that you're talking about,

1018
00:30:30,569 --> 00:30:31,470
aided by all the

1019
00:30:31,509 --> 00:30:33,050
surveillance on actual

1020
00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:34,352
communities and towns and

1021
00:30:34,432 --> 00:30:35,252
cities on the border.

1022
00:30:36,277 --> 00:30:36,416
Yeah,

1023
00:30:36,537 --> 00:30:38,997
it brings to mind the tower that's

1024
00:30:39,198 --> 00:30:40,458
sitting in Calexico around

1025
00:30:40,498 --> 00:30:41,778
the public park right along

1026
00:30:41,798 --> 00:30:43,698
the border that Dave has

1027
00:30:43,738 --> 00:30:45,939
done some research on and

1028
00:30:45,999 --> 00:30:47,778
how ever present it is.

1029
00:30:47,979 --> 00:30:49,878
And I think to me,

1030
00:30:49,919 --> 00:30:51,980
what that brings to mind is

1031
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,059
this concept of how

1032
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,480
violence gets normalized

1033
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:56,019
and violence manifested

1034
00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:57,661
through the infrastructure

1035
00:30:57,681 --> 00:30:58,621
of surveillance gets

1036
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,980
normalized and people stop

1037
00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:01,540
questioning why it should

1038
00:31:01,580 --> 00:31:02,622
be there in the first place.

1039
00:31:03,021 --> 00:31:05,162
And I think that's one aspect of

1040
00:31:05,765 --> 00:31:07,586
the militarization of borderlands,

1041
00:31:07,605 --> 00:31:08,826
where you normalize the violence,

1042
00:31:08,865 --> 00:31:09,767
people get used to it,

1043
00:31:09,787 --> 00:31:10,946
they stop questioning it.

1044
00:31:11,666 --> 00:31:12,228
And oftentimes,

1045
00:31:12,288 --> 00:31:13,567
until something happens

1046
00:31:13,587 --> 00:31:14,608
that's really terrible,

1047
00:31:15,048 --> 00:31:16,769
that then people respond to it.

1048
00:31:17,869 --> 00:31:19,530
And that's part of the

1049
00:31:19,611 --> 00:31:22,152
culture of both impunity,

1050
00:31:22,551 --> 00:31:25,053
but also the culture of militarization,

1051
00:31:25,532 --> 00:31:27,253
that unfortunately,

1052
00:31:27,534 --> 00:31:30,035
there is a part of society

1053
00:31:30,075 --> 00:31:31,816
that gets accustomed to it

1054
00:31:31,855 --> 00:31:32,895
and they stop questioning

1055
00:31:33,336 --> 00:31:34,096
why it should be there in

1056
00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:34,717
the first place.

1057
00:31:36,989 --> 00:31:38,490
Todd, I have a question for you.

1058
00:31:39,111 --> 00:31:40,153
Feel free to jump in on any

1059
00:31:40,192 --> 00:31:41,253
of these other questions as well.

1060
00:31:41,273 --> 00:31:42,955
But my question to you is,

1061
00:31:42,976 --> 00:31:44,337
I'm wondering to what

1062
00:31:44,417 --> 00:31:46,861
extent border security

1063
00:31:46,922 --> 00:31:49,505
policy and the desire,

1064
00:31:49,545 --> 00:31:50,665
the need for all of this

1065
00:31:50,685 --> 00:31:53,109
surveillance is being driven by vendors?

1066
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:54,691
Because that is something

1067
00:31:54,730 --> 00:31:56,251
we're very much seeing in

1068
00:31:56,531 --> 00:31:57,712
local law enforcement,

1069
00:31:58,532 --> 00:32:00,494
that they're inventing a

1070
00:32:00,555 --> 00:32:01,955
need for a lot of this tech

1071
00:32:02,355 --> 00:32:03,757
and they are then making a

1072
00:32:03,797 --> 00:32:04,596
lot of money off of it.

1073
00:32:05,137 --> 00:32:07,578
But we know that it's a massive industry.

1074
00:32:07,659 --> 00:32:08,839
Individual companies are

1075
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,681
getting contracts that are

1076
00:32:10,701 --> 00:32:12,041
sometimes in excess of a

1077
00:32:12,122 --> 00:32:13,884
billion dollars for their

1078
00:32:13,903 --> 00:32:14,544
surveillance equipment.

1079
00:32:14,564 --> 00:32:15,464
So I'm wondering how much

1080
00:32:15,805 --> 00:32:18,105
you see vendors really kind

1081
00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:20,488
of driving this need,

1082
00:32:20,528 --> 00:32:21,969
this market for more

1083
00:32:22,028 --> 00:32:23,470
surveillance on the border.

1084
00:32:25,871 --> 00:32:27,810
yeah I mean I remember when

1085
00:32:27,892 --> 00:32:30,211
I first started looking

1086
00:32:30,291 --> 00:32:31,553
into this and going to some

1087
00:32:31,593 --> 00:32:33,673
of the border exhibitions

1088
00:32:33,713 --> 00:32:34,733
like the border security

1089
00:32:34,814 --> 00:32:36,314
expo that dave mentioned

1090
00:32:37,115 --> 00:32:38,654
and uh I went to one in I

1091
00:32:38,694 --> 00:32:42,056
believe it was and a vendor

1092
00:32:42,316 --> 00:32:45,998
I remember talking to vendors there

1093
00:32:47,011 --> 00:32:49,453
And several of them, multiple ones,

1094
00:32:49,713 --> 00:32:50,775
I have quotes from them

1095
00:32:50,835 --> 00:32:53,217
saying that they were

1096
00:32:54,157 --> 00:32:56,119
vendors selling to the US military.

1097
00:32:57,580 --> 00:32:58,721
And one of them said,

1098
00:32:58,961 --> 00:33:00,663
and basically this was the sentiment,

1099
00:33:01,944 --> 00:33:03,365
war operations are starting

1100
00:33:03,405 --> 00:33:05,428
to wind down in certain

1101
00:33:05,468 --> 00:33:07,368
places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

1102
00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:10,432
And now we are looking for a new market.

1103
00:33:11,363 --> 00:33:13,585
And thus, hence,

1104
00:33:14,046 --> 00:33:15,106
this was one of the new

1105
00:33:15,146 --> 00:33:18,910
markets in border security.

1106
00:33:20,412 --> 00:33:22,394
And that sort of putting

1107
00:33:22,433 --> 00:33:23,595
themselves in the market

1108
00:33:23,734 --> 00:33:25,497
and that sort of marketplace

1109
00:33:26,317 --> 00:33:27,818
and having you know you have

1110
00:33:27,979 --> 00:33:30,039
companies of all statures

1111
00:33:30,059 --> 00:33:31,340
right you have large ones

1112
00:33:31,361 --> 00:33:33,821
small ones um and the large

1113
00:33:33,922 --> 00:33:35,942
ones of course also have

1114
00:33:36,403 --> 00:33:37,703
the ability to get behind

1115
00:33:37,743 --> 00:33:39,404
closed doors in washington

1116
00:33:40,105 --> 00:33:41,807
to talk to key policy

1117
00:33:41,846 --> 00:33:45,308
makers to get in to get in

1118
00:33:45,348 --> 00:33:46,229
there when they're talking

1119
00:33:46,269 --> 00:33:47,589
about appropriations or

1120
00:33:47,630 --> 00:33:50,611
budgets to make sure there

1121
00:33:50,811 --> 00:33:53,212
are companies involved you know in

1122
00:33:54,196 --> 00:33:56,398
considered as, but new budgets come out.

1123
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:57,400
Um,

1124
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,801
when I remember like the comprehensive

1125
00:33:59,842 --> 00:34:01,022
immigration reform bill

1126
00:34:01,063 --> 00:34:02,805
that came out into, I think it was,

1127
00:34:02,825 --> 00:34:04,226
correct me if I'm wrong.

1128
00:34:04,587 --> 00:34:05,907
There's the quote unquote

1129
00:34:05,928 --> 00:34:07,888
gang of eight one and it

1130
00:34:07,949 --> 00:34:08,909
passed through the Senate.

1131
00:34:09,309 --> 00:34:10,269
But if you look at the I

1132
00:34:10,289 --> 00:34:10,989
think it was almost a

1133
00:34:11,050 --> 00:34:12,311
thousand pages and there

1134
00:34:12,331 --> 00:34:15,311
was in several of those pages,

1135
00:34:15,411 --> 00:34:16,652
there was itemized list of

1136
00:34:16,692 --> 00:34:18,112
what companies were going

1137
00:34:18,132 --> 00:34:19,572
to get what contracts.

1138
00:34:20,032 --> 00:34:22,373
If this if this this what

1139
00:34:22,393 --> 00:34:23,353
was called a comprehensive

1140
00:34:23,373 --> 00:34:25,215
immigration reform bill,

1141
00:34:25,255 --> 00:34:26,414
which included forty five

1142
00:34:26,454 --> 00:34:27,735
billion dollars for border

1143
00:34:27,775 --> 00:34:28,956
and immigration enforcement.

1144
00:34:29,577 --> 00:34:31,197
if what companies were going

1145
00:34:31,217 --> 00:34:32,637
to get like Sikorsky was going to get,

1146
00:34:33,978 --> 00:34:34,478
I think it was something

1147
00:34:34,518 --> 00:34:36,639
like sixteen Blackhawk helicopters.

1148
00:34:36,659 --> 00:34:37,878
And, you know,

1149
00:34:37,898 --> 00:34:38,840
there's a bunch of different

1150
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,679
other companies that were there.

1151
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,101
So I would say that that in the industry,

1152
00:34:43,141 --> 00:34:45,081
the way the way that it can

1153
00:34:45,181 --> 00:34:46,942
insert itself and then the

1154
00:34:46,961 --> 00:34:48,081
way that it can influence

1155
00:34:48,121 --> 00:34:50,003
policy and the way that it

1156
00:34:50,123 --> 00:34:52,222
also is able to give money

1157
00:34:52,342 --> 00:34:55,903
to campaigns makes its

1158
00:34:55,963 --> 00:34:58,804
influence pretty powerful.

1159
00:35:00,572 --> 00:35:02,614
yeah absolutely yeah and and

1160
00:35:02,753 --> 00:35:04,114
at the border security expo

1161
00:35:04,175 --> 00:35:05,757
it's a very good place to

1162
00:35:05,896 --> 00:35:07,338
see the influence of some

1163
00:35:07,378 --> 00:35:08,599
of those vendors in real

1164
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:10,860
time um petra you mentioned

1165
00:35:11,141 --> 00:35:12,722
robo dogs earlier and I

1166
00:35:12,782 --> 00:35:15,684
know that the dhs had a

1167
00:35:15,724 --> 00:35:17,146
kind of trial run of them

1168
00:35:17,226 --> 00:35:18,708
earlier on we have a panel

1169
00:35:18,728 --> 00:35:19,668
in the exhibit about the

1170
00:35:19,989 --> 00:35:21,389
the potential future of

1171
00:35:21,469 --> 00:35:22,451
border surveillance.

1172
00:35:22,811 --> 00:35:24,492
And I'm wondering if, you know,

1173
00:35:24,632 --> 00:35:27,014
are robots going to play a larger role?

1174
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:29,657
What tech do you see emerging?

1175
00:35:30,016 --> 00:35:31,297
What is going to be the next

1176
00:35:31,338 --> 00:35:33,079
generation of border surveillance?

1177
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:34,900
Is the U.S.-Mexico border

1178
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,422
the most high tech,

1179
00:35:36,442 --> 00:35:37,963
the most futuristic of

1180
00:35:38,023 --> 00:35:39,423
these borders that you've looked at?

1181
00:35:39,443 --> 00:35:41,545
And what is that next

1182
00:35:41,565 --> 00:35:43,027
generation of tech going to look like?

1183
00:35:43,086 --> 00:35:44,068
And this is coming from somebody who,

1184
00:35:44,507 --> 00:35:45,208
as a pet project,

1185
00:35:45,228 --> 00:35:45,889
is very interested in

1186
00:35:45,969 --> 00:35:47,170
autonomous weapon systems.

1187
00:35:47,230 --> 00:35:48,070
So I'll add...

1188
00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:50,152
What is also the chance that

1189
00:35:50,172 --> 00:35:52,552
we see some of these robot

1190
00:35:52,592 --> 00:35:55,255
dogs or even drones that

1191
00:35:55,275 --> 00:35:56,175
are going to be armed in

1192
00:35:56,195 --> 00:35:57,996
the next few years?

1193
00:35:58,775 --> 00:35:59,117
Yeah,

1194
00:35:59,137 --> 00:36:01,277
so I think the robot dog example is

1195
00:36:01,338 --> 00:36:02,657
probably one of the most

1196
00:36:02,777 --> 00:36:04,498
visceral examples of tech.

1197
00:36:04,579 --> 00:36:06,420
It makes you feel all sorts

1198
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,920
of ways because for the

1199
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:09,481
sci-fi fans in the room,

1200
00:36:09,501 --> 00:36:10,822
you might recall that it

1201
00:36:10,862 --> 00:36:12,623
was featured on a TV show

1202
00:36:12,643 --> 00:36:13,384
like Black Mirror,

1203
00:36:13,423 --> 00:36:14,965
but it's very much a reality.

1204
00:36:15,985 --> 00:36:16,525
So the Department of

1205
00:36:16,545 --> 00:36:17,706
Homeland Security announced

1206
00:36:17,766 --> 00:36:18,927
in twenty twenty two,

1207
00:36:19,047 --> 00:36:20,088
but it was actually based

1208
00:36:20,208 --> 00:36:21,608
on a few projects that were

1209
00:36:21,668 --> 00:36:22,750
piloted in the European

1210
00:36:22,869 --> 00:36:24,351
Union a few years before

1211
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:25,532
with some really terrible

1212
00:36:25,572 --> 00:36:27,572
names like Snoopy and Sniffer.

1213
00:36:27,813 --> 00:36:28,052
I mean,

1214
00:36:28,072 --> 00:36:29,753
the name and nomenclature behind

1215
00:36:29,773 --> 00:36:30,715
these projects,

1216
00:36:30,835 --> 00:36:32,135
that's a whole other thing

1217
00:36:32,155 --> 00:36:33,157
that we need to look into.

1218
00:36:34,416 --> 00:36:34,938
But yeah, I mean,

1219
00:36:34,978 --> 00:36:35,918
the RoboDogs are a

1220
00:36:35,958 --> 00:36:37,159
military-grade piece of

1221
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:39,059
technology that can be armed.

1222
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:40,960
And even though it's not

1223
00:36:41,059 --> 00:36:42,420
exactly clear where that

1224
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,621
pilot project went at the

1225
00:36:43,661 --> 00:36:44,621
US-Mexico border,

1226
00:36:45,262 --> 00:36:47,782
I think it signals an appetite, again,

1227
00:36:47,822 --> 00:36:49,603
for this militarization of

1228
00:36:49,824 --> 00:36:51,204
interventions that are

1229
00:36:51,605 --> 00:36:54,086
brought out for the purposes

1230
00:36:54,126 --> 00:36:55,288
of migration management or

1231
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:56,248
border enforcement.

1232
00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:59,271
In terms of where this might be going,

1233
00:36:59,472 --> 00:36:59,853
I mean,

1234
00:37:00,193 --> 00:37:02,215
definitely the obsession or what

1235
00:37:02,235 --> 00:37:04,036
some people call the AI

1236
00:37:04,195 --> 00:37:06,077
arms race is in full swing.

1237
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:10,141
debatable where AI is going

1238
00:37:10,181 --> 00:37:12,262
to play a role perhaps in

1239
00:37:12,342 --> 00:37:13,784
border enforcement per se,

1240
00:37:13,824 --> 00:37:14,844
because sometimes the

1241
00:37:14,864 --> 00:37:16,905
technology doesn't work as intended.

1242
00:37:16,925 --> 00:37:18,606
It's also important to, I think,

1243
00:37:18,626 --> 00:37:19,367
critique it from that

1244
00:37:19,407 --> 00:37:21,648
perspective that oftentimes

1245
00:37:22,110 --> 00:37:23,190
the announcements are scary

1246
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:24,351
and the technology is scary,

1247
00:37:24,371 --> 00:37:25,331
but it is also a

1248
00:37:25,391 --> 00:37:27,012
performance of surveillance

1249
00:37:27,092 --> 00:37:28,793
that plays into the hands

1250
00:37:28,853 --> 00:37:30,434
of these powerful actors that are

1251
00:37:30,914 --> 00:37:32,735
able to kind of manifest the

1252
00:37:32,757 --> 00:37:33,757
fears that a lot of people

1253
00:37:33,797 --> 00:37:34,858
have around the so-called

1254
00:37:34,978 --> 00:37:36,018
problem of migration.

1255
00:37:36,518 --> 00:37:37,260
But that's not to say that

1256
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:37,900
we shouldn't be paying

1257
00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:39,041
attention to the kind of

1258
00:37:39,081 --> 00:37:39,860
developments that are

1259
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,103
happening with generative AI, for example,

1260
00:37:42,503 --> 00:37:43,724
and more and more automation.

1261
00:37:44,204 --> 00:37:45,125
But I just want to bring it

1262
00:37:45,144 --> 00:37:46,885
back to a point that I made earlier.

1263
00:37:47,206 --> 00:37:48,967
A lot of violence happens

1264
00:37:49,708 --> 00:37:51,688
in places that are maybe

1265
00:37:51,768 --> 00:37:53,668
less sexy or visceral.

1266
00:37:54,028 --> 00:37:55,670
So it's not just about the robodogs,

1267
00:37:55,710 --> 00:37:56,110
but again,

1268
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:58,250
it's about discriminatory data sets.

1269
00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:00,331
It's about algorithms that

1270
00:38:00,670 --> 00:38:01,690
make decisions about

1271
00:38:01,751 --> 00:38:02,510
whether or not you can

1272
00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:04,092
enter a country or reunite

1273
00:38:04,112 --> 00:38:05,172
with your spouse or whether

1274
00:38:05,192 --> 00:38:06,612
you're going to be put into detention.

1275
00:38:06,992 --> 00:38:07,793
It's these things that are

1276
00:38:08,092 --> 00:38:09,253
even more difficult to

1277
00:38:09,293 --> 00:38:10,672
query and critique because

1278
00:38:10,713 --> 00:38:12,713
we can't point our finger and say, well,

1279
00:38:12,753 --> 00:38:13,594
this is what's happening.

1280
00:38:13,634 --> 00:38:14,934
You can't take a picture of

1281
00:38:14,954 --> 00:38:16,835
a discriminatory or racist algorithm.

1282
00:38:17,414 --> 00:38:19,436
And those are the tools of

1283
00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:20,398
oppression and violence

1284
00:38:20,418 --> 00:38:23,221
that we also have to pay attention to.

1285
00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:25,003
And also often supplied by

1286
00:38:25,063 --> 00:38:25,923
vendors as well.

1287
00:38:26,063 --> 00:38:27,405
There's also an industry

1288
00:38:27,746 --> 00:38:29,126
that is popping up around

1289
00:38:29,226 --> 00:38:30,128
automated decision making.

1290
00:38:30,708 --> 00:38:31,909
They're making decisions

1291
00:38:31,969 --> 00:38:33,211
about people's life and

1292
00:38:33,231 --> 00:38:35,114
their freedom behind these

1293
00:38:35,134 --> 00:38:36,175
kind of black box of

1294
00:38:36,235 --> 00:38:37,516
proprietary information.

1295
00:38:37,556 --> 00:38:38,858
It's a terrific point.

1296
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:40,978
We probably have time for

1297
00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:41,639
one more question before

1298
00:38:41,659 --> 00:38:42,661
we're going to open up to

1299
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:43,802
audience questions.

1300
00:38:44,842 --> 00:38:46,704
This is for Pedro first, and then Todd.

1301
00:38:47,625 --> 00:38:48,846
As activists and as

1302
00:38:49,445 --> 00:38:50,907
journalists who often do a

1303
00:38:50,967 --> 00:38:52,248
lot of work on the border,

1304
00:38:52,708 --> 00:38:53,688
across the border,

1305
00:38:54,269 --> 00:38:55,610
I'm wondering if you

1306
00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:58,833
yourself have thought about, you know,

1307
00:38:59,534 --> 00:39:00,534
precautions you take with

1308
00:39:00,554 --> 00:39:01,715
your own cybersecurity

1309
00:39:03,175 --> 00:39:04,436
issues that you have you

1310
00:39:04,456 --> 00:39:05,856
have experienced or your

1311
00:39:05,896 --> 00:39:06,956
colleagues have experienced

1312
00:39:07,336 --> 00:39:09,898
in doing this work in a

1313
00:39:09,958 --> 00:39:11,157
setting where there is, as you said,

1314
00:39:11,237 --> 00:39:12,619
a tremendous amount of impunity,

1315
00:39:12,878 --> 00:39:13,918
where there's a tremendous

1316
00:39:13,958 --> 00:39:14,880
amount of surveillance,

1317
00:39:15,179 --> 00:39:16,380
where the government has

1318
00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:18,260
theories that rights erode

1319
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,641
as you get closer to the border.

1320
00:39:19,981 --> 00:39:20,762
So I'm wondering if you all

1321
00:39:20,802 --> 00:39:22,202
could talk about the kind

1322
00:39:22,222 --> 00:39:24,322
of experiences you've had

1323
00:39:24,523 --> 00:39:26,003
as journalists and as activists.

1324
00:39:27,443 --> 00:39:27,965
Yeah, certainly.

1325
00:39:28,585 --> 00:39:29,889
And I would point to a

1326
00:39:29,929 --> 00:39:31,052
situation in twenty

1327
00:39:31,072 --> 00:39:32,056
eighteen a few years ago

1328
00:39:32,115 --> 00:39:33,159
when there were large

1329
00:39:35,099 --> 00:39:36,360
People on the move in

1330
00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:37,422
caravans arriving to the

1331
00:39:37,501 --> 00:39:39,664
U.S.-Mexico border and the

1332
00:39:39,684 --> 00:39:41,306
Customs and Border Protection, CBP,

1333
00:39:41,365 --> 00:39:43,186
together with their Mexican counterparts,

1334
00:39:43,748 --> 00:39:46,811
had secret groups in Tijuana, Mexico,

1335
00:39:47,291 --> 00:39:48,351
that were surveilling

1336
00:39:48,512 --> 00:39:49,512
certain individuals that

1337
00:39:49,552 --> 00:39:51,875
they associated as being

1338
00:39:52,155 --> 00:39:52,996
involved in one way or

1339
00:39:53,036 --> 00:39:54,617
another with the

1340
00:39:54,697 --> 00:39:56,219
organization of the

1341
00:39:56,259 --> 00:39:58,501
migrants that were moving north.

1342
00:39:59,010 --> 00:40:00,192
And this included journalists,

1343
00:40:00,231 --> 00:40:01,291
it included activists,

1344
00:40:01,391 --> 00:40:03,833
it included humanitarian aid workers.

1345
00:40:04,494 --> 00:40:06,155
And as they were crossing

1346
00:40:06,235 --> 00:40:07,315
and returning into the

1347
00:40:07,355 --> 00:40:09,315
United States through the

1348
00:40:09,356 --> 00:40:10,336
San Ysidro Port of Entry,

1349
00:40:10,916 --> 00:40:13,659
they were put aside and put into a list.

1350
00:40:13,739 --> 00:40:15,239
And this list was then made

1351
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,820
public and became acutely

1352
00:40:17,860 --> 00:40:19,121
aware that there was a

1353
00:40:19,161 --> 00:40:20,181
specific targeting of

1354
00:40:20,242 --> 00:40:21,123
certain individuals.

1355
00:40:21,983 --> 00:40:23,403
And at that point then,

1356
00:40:24,143 --> 00:40:27,346
one becomes much more aware

1357
00:40:27,949 --> 00:40:29,289
a prize of the fact that

1358
00:40:29,449 --> 00:40:31,371
there is real significant

1359
00:40:31,411 --> 00:40:33,291
surveillance taking place

1360
00:40:33,572 --> 00:40:35,871
of certain organizations or

1361
00:40:35,911 --> 00:40:37,952
certain groups of people or

1362
00:40:37,992 --> 00:40:39,052
population groups that are

1363
00:40:39,092 --> 00:40:40,574
involved in humanitarian

1364
00:40:40,614 --> 00:40:42,795
aid support towards some of

1365
00:40:42,815 --> 00:40:44,635
the most vulnerable people on the planet.

1366
00:40:45,235 --> 00:40:46,456
And it does raise questions

1367
00:40:46,496 --> 00:40:48,436
about what steps we need to

1368
00:40:48,476 --> 00:40:50,516
take to ensure that the

1369
00:40:50,536 --> 00:40:51,896
information that we're

1370
00:40:51,936 --> 00:40:53,677
collecting is safeguarded,

1371
00:40:53,717 --> 00:40:55,257
that our own personal

1372
00:40:55,318 --> 00:40:56,978
information is safeguarded,

1373
00:40:57,588 --> 00:40:59,028
particularly in a world

1374
00:40:59,088 --> 00:41:01,230
where there are many more

1375
00:41:01,911 --> 00:41:03,952
people that are taking to

1376
00:41:04,552 --> 00:41:06,273
on a sort of right wing approach,

1377
00:41:06,813 --> 00:41:09,335
going up to our faces, taking video of us,

1378
00:41:09,516 --> 00:41:10,096
calling us,

1379
00:41:12,556 --> 00:41:14,456
human smugglers as we're

1380
00:41:15,137 --> 00:41:16,797
working at a solidarity aid

1381
00:41:16,838 --> 00:41:17,998
station right along the border.

1382
00:41:18,577 --> 00:41:20,759
And so there is a much more

1383
00:41:20,818 --> 00:41:22,878
palpable danger that people

1384
00:41:22,918 --> 00:41:25,940
in this field have to deal with.

1385
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,039
And so the measures that we

1386
00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:28,960
have to take for security

1387
00:41:29,059 --> 00:41:35,081
have to be top notch.

1388
00:41:35,141 --> 00:41:36,382
Yeah, I definitely agree.

1389
00:41:36,681 --> 00:41:40,842
There's always in consideration

1390
00:41:42,838 --> 00:41:45,240
as a journalist that covers these things,

1391
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,101
but just thinking about the

1392
00:41:47,141 --> 00:41:48,163
incident that Pedro was

1393
00:41:48,182 --> 00:41:49,023
talking about or the

1394
00:41:49,103 --> 00:41:52,465
incidents involving other

1395
00:41:52,505 --> 00:41:53,867
journalists and activists.

1396
00:41:54,086 --> 00:41:58,030
And just thinking about how,

1397
00:41:59,070 --> 00:41:59,972
I know at one point the

1398
00:42:00,052 --> 00:42:01,753
ACLU would call the hundred

1399
00:42:01,793 --> 00:42:02,833
mile jurisdiction

1400
00:42:03,503 --> 00:42:05,244
around the around the border

1401
00:42:05,264 --> 00:42:06,864
and that u.s mexico border

1402
00:42:06,925 --> 00:42:07,865
but that could include the

1403
00:42:07,905 --> 00:42:10,527
coasts and you know the uh

1404
00:42:10,547 --> 00:42:11,907
the uh northern border as

1405
00:42:11,927 --> 00:42:12,907
well the hundred that

1406
00:42:12,947 --> 00:42:14,588
hundred mile jurisdiction

1407
00:42:14,628 --> 00:42:16,248
that includes two-thirds of

1408
00:42:16,268 --> 00:42:17,568
the u.s population like

1409
00:42:17,668 --> 00:42:18,469
over two hundred million

1410
00:42:18,489 --> 00:42:20,210
people as a constitution

1411
00:42:20,250 --> 00:42:21,811
free zone I did write that

1412
00:42:21,871 --> 00:42:23,050
in an article once and I

1413
00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:24,992
was an aclu person said

1414
00:42:25,032 --> 00:42:26,652
please don't attribute that to us

1415
00:42:27,333 --> 00:42:28,833
Because, you know,

1416
00:42:30,253 --> 00:42:30,994
so maybe we should call it

1417
00:42:31,014 --> 00:42:33,333
the Constitution mangled zone, right?

1418
00:42:33,653 --> 00:42:35,173
But the fact of the matter is,

1419
00:42:35,213 --> 00:42:37,215
if you go through, like, it comes,

1420
00:42:37,414 --> 00:42:39,534
I was just in Mexico for a

1421
00:42:39,574 --> 00:42:40,635
week doing research.

1422
00:42:40,675 --> 00:42:42,396
I'm just getting back right now, actually.

1423
00:42:42,976 --> 00:42:44,775
And I had to, like,

1424
00:42:44,896 --> 00:42:46,936
consider crossing the border,

1425
00:42:47,117 --> 00:42:48,556
understand that the actual

1426
00:42:48,597 --> 00:42:50,976
border crossing, that all rights,

1427
00:42:51,117 --> 00:42:52,918
your rights are gone in

1428
00:42:52,958 --> 00:42:55,237
that moment of crossing the border, that

1429
00:42:55,824 --> 00:42:57,204
they're they have been

1430
00:42:57,646 --> 00:42:59,226
confiscating I mean they

1431
00:42:59,246 --> 00:43:00,085
could take you into

1432
00:43:00,126 --> 00:43:01,967
secondary interrogation

1433
00:43:02,027 --> 00:43:04,106
that's happened to me among

1434
00:43:04,246 --> 00:43:05,748
among other people and and

1435
00:43:06,088 --> 00:43:07,148
I was surprised the last

1436
00:43:07,188 --> 00:43:08,528
time I went into it that

1437
00:43:08,548 --> 00:43:09,248
they shut the door and

1438
00:43:09,289 --> 00:43:10,429
locked it right so you

1439
00:43:10,449 --> 00:43:11,929
couldn't even get out so I

1440
00:43:11,969 --> 00:43:13,150
guess you're detained right

1441
00:43:13,590 --> 00:43:15,731
and um and and they can

1442
00:43:15,791 --> 00:43:17,311
confiscate your devices

1443
00:43:17,630 --> 00:43:18,831
that that happens it

1444
00:43:18,871 --> 00:43:20,172
happens quite on the

1445
00:43:20,211 --> 00:43:21,751
regular uh this time I

1446
00:43:21,771 --> 00:43:22,913
didn't even take my laptop

1447
00:43:22,932 --> 00:43:23,932
with me I just took my

1448
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:25,521
I just took my phone.

1449
00:43:25,561 --> 00:43:28,501
I mean, it was fine coming back and forth,

1450
00:43:28,561 --> 00:43:30,764
but the considerations and

1451
00:43:30,784 --> 00:43:32,545
the sort of things that you

1452
00:43:32,585 --> 00:43:34,166
have to think of as you

1453
00:43:34,206 --> 00:43:36,347
move through this territory

1454
00:43:36,407 --> 00:43:40,168
and the sort of extra

1455
00:43:40,650 --> 00:43:41,849
constitutional power,

1456
00:43:41,909 --> 00:43:42,751
I guess you could call it,

1457
00:43:43,751 --> 00:43:45,932
that the forces,

1458
00:43:45,992 --> 00:43:46,913
the immigration or the

1459
00:43:47,032 --> 00:43:49,695
border forces can wage are

1460
00:43:49,715 --> 00:43:51,516
definitely constantly in consideration.

1461
00:43:53,047 --> 00:43:54,827
And this is where I'll plug

1462
00:43:55,009 --> 00:43:56,208
our surveillance

1463
00:43:56,228 --> 00:43:59,010
self-defense guides at EFF,

1464
00:43:59,130 --> 00:44:01,932
which include guides for

1465
00:44:01,952 --> 00:44:02,833
journalists crossing

1466
00:44:02,873 --> 00:44:04,074
borders and who want to

1467
00:44:04,235 --> 00:44:05,335
make sure they safeguard

1468
00:44:05,356 --> 00:44:06,295
the data they've been

1469
00:44:06,335 --> 00:44:08,036
collecting in their drafts.

1470
00:44:08,518 --> 00:44:09,778
So, yeah, thank you so much.

1471
00:44:10,418 --> 00:44:11,099
So now we're going to turn

1472
00:44:11,119 --> 00:44:12,722
to some answers from some

1473
00:44:12,782 --> 00:44:14,083
questions from the audience.

1474
00:44:14,523 --> 00:44:15,224
The first one,

1475
00:44:16,126 --> 00:44:17,967
I'll start us out scary and

1476
00:44:17,987 --> 00:44:19,349
then we'll hopefully get a

1477
00:44:19,389 --> 00:44:20,471
little more optimistic,

1478
00:44:20,530 --> 00:44:22,293
which is for each of you,

1479
00:44:22,673 --> 00:44:23,815
what is one piece of

1480
00:44:23,855 --> 00:44:25,657
technology actively in the

1481
00:44:25,677 --> 00:44:26,757
field now or that you see

1482
00:44:26,797 --> 00:44:28,219
emerging that you are most

1483
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:28,880
concerned about?

1484
00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:29,742
What's the one piece of

1485
00:44:29,762 --> 00:44:30,402
technology that kind of

1486
00:44:30,762 --> 00:44:32,244
keeps you up the most,

1487
00:44:33,266 --> 00:44:35,449
whether it is as exciting

1488
00:44:35,570 --> 00:44:36,731
and photographable as a

1489
00:44:37,373 --> 00:44:39,215
robot dog or as kind of

1490
00:44:39,295 --> 00:44:41,679
insidious and hidden as algorithms.

1491
00:44:41,699 --> 00:44:43,101
We'll start with Petra.

1492
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:47,382
So I'll go with another dystopic one,

1493
00:44:48,242 --> 00:44:50,304
and that would be an AI lie detector.

1494
00:44:51,065 --> 00:44:52,387
This was a pilot project

1495
00:44:52,487 --> 00:44:53,989
that was pushed forward in

1496
00:44:54,028 --> 00:44:55,309
the European Union called

1497
00:44:55,590 --> 00:44:58,293
Eye Border Control, Small Eye Border,

1498
00:44:58,434 --> 00:44:59,173
CTRL.

1499
00:44:59,355 --> 00:45:00,376
See that point about names?

1500
00:45:00,735 --> 00:45:01,856
Seriously, the naming, you know,

1501
00:45:01,876 --> 00:45:03,438
now we have an iPhone, an iPad,

1502
00:45:03,478 --> 00:45:04,559
and an Eye Border Control.

1503
00:45:05,221 --> 00:45:05,800
Essentially,

1504
00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:07,983
this was a project that tried to create a

1505
00:45:08,523 --> 00:45:09,425
for lack of a better word,

1506
00:45:09,445 --> 00:45:10,706
an AI lie detector that

1507
00:45:10,726 --> 00:45:11,465
would use facial

1508
00:45:11,485 --> 00:45:12,726
recognition or micro

1509
00:45:12,786 --> 00:45:14,648
expression analysis to make

1510
00:45:14,688 --> 00:45:16,010
determinations about

1511
00:45:16,050 --> 00:45:17,110
whether or not a person was

1512
00:45:17,150 --> 00:45:18,032
telling the truth at the

1513
00:45:18,072 --> 00:45:19,052
border and then being

1514
00:45:19,112 --> 00:45:20,052
screened for secondary

1515
00:45:20,092 --> 00:45:21,353
processing as a result.

1516
00:45:22,155 --> 00:45:23,396
So much to say about this.

1517
00:45:23,615 --> 00:45:24,135
First of all,

1518
00:45:24,217 --> 00:45:26,338
it's funded through a massive

1519
00:45:26,378 --> 00:45:27,659
research consortium called

1520
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,460
Horizon Twenty Twenty with

1521
00:45:29,501 --> 00:45:31,882
an academic institution involved as well.

1522
00:45:31,983 --> 00:45:32,463
So, you know,

1523
00:45:32,483 --> 00:45:34,063
as someone who has one foot in academia,

1524
00:45:34,083 --> 00:45:35,925
I think it's important to also critique

1525
00:45:36,505 --> 00:45:37,768
what academics do to

1526
00:45:37,827 --> 00:45:39,208
legitimize extremely

1527
00:45:39,268 --> 00:45:40,550
problematic projects.

1528
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:41,431
That's one point.

1529
00:45:42,032 --> 00:45:42,914
But if I want to analyze it

1530
00:45:43,074 --> 00:45:45,356
from a refugee law perspective, I mean,

1531
00:45:45,677 --> 00:45:47,438
how can an AI lie detector

1532
00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:48,780
deal with differences in

1533
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,382
cross-cultural communication,

1534
00:45:50,461 --> 00:45:51,083
for example?

1535
00:45:51,956 --> 00:45:53,117
I've represented people when

1536
00:45:53,177 --> 00:45:54,599
I used to practice law who

1537
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:55,719
didn't make eye contact

1538
00:45:55,780 --> 00:45:56,820
with a judge of the

1539
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,063
opposite gender because of religion,

1540
00:45:59,563 --> 00:46:01,704
their experiences, nerves.

1541
00:46:02,505 --> 00:46:03,465
Or what about the impact of

1542
00:46:03,507 --> 00:46:04,748
trauma on memory and the

1543
00:46:04,788 --> 00:46:05,568
fact that we don't tell

1544
00:46:05,628 --> 00:46:07,230
stories in a linear way anyway?

1545
00:46:07,650 --> 00:46:08,871
Like human decision makers

1546
00:46:08,911 --> 00:46:09,711
struggle with this.

1547
00:46:09,891 --> 00:46:11,952
How can an AI lie detector be any better?

1548
00:46:12,753 --> 00:46:14,175
This definitely keeps me up at night.

1549
00:46:14,235 --> 00:46:15,576
Pedro?

1550
00:46:18,467 --> 00:46:19,108
There's so much.

1551
00:46:19,527 --> 00:46:21,731
There's so much that we can

1552
00:46:21,871 --> 00:46:22,492
answer that question.

1553
00:46:22,692 --> 00:46:24,193
I would say I referred to it earlier,

1554
00:46:24,253 --> 00:46:26,054
the collection of DNA,

1555
00:46:26,436 --> 00:46:28,257
and oftentimes the DNA is

1556
00:46:28,277 --> 00:46:30,119
being collected without the

1557
00:46:30,139 --> 00:46:31,280
individual's consent.

1558
00:46:31,782 --> 00:46:33,784
They have no idea that this

1559
00:46:33,824 --> 00:46:36,447
is that's being done for this purpose.

1560
00:46:36,467 --> 00:46:38,769
When when they when border

1561
00:46:38,789 --> 00:46:40,030
patrol agents will swab

1562
00:46:41,007 --> 00:46:41,789
inside of their mouths to

1563
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:42,889
collect their DNA.

1564
00:46:43,128 --> 00:46:44,590
And then again,

1565
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:46,251
goes to the questions around retention,

1566
00:46:46,751 --> 00:46:48,391
goes to the questions

1567
00:46:48,411 --> 00:46:50,652
around who has access to that information,

1568
00:46:52,032 --> 00:46:52,914
whether that'll be

1569
00:46:52,954 --> 00:46:55,414
available to a private entity that then

1570
00:46:56,128 --> 00:46:59,112
might use it to profit from.

1571
00:47:00,333 --> 00:47:01,434
And so everything having to

1572
00:47:01,474 --> 00:47:02,637
do with collection of

1573
00:47:02,976 --> 00:47:04,518
biometrics in this sense,

1574
00:47:04,579 --> 00:47:06,380
I think raises a lot of

1575
00:47:06,561 --> 00:47:07,862
questions and alarm for me.

1576
00:47:08,242 --> 00:47:09,744
And especially as we're

1577
00:47:09,844 --> 00:47:12,126
seeing that there have been

1578
00:47:12,268 --> 00:47:14,429
so many breaches that even

1579
00:47:14,449 --> 00:47:15,590
the government can't control.

1580
00:47:16,251 --> 00:47:19,094
that the data set here is so

1581
00:47:19,193 --> 00:47:22,036
rich and could also be used

1582
00:47:22,056 --> 00:47:23,737
for discriminatory practices.

1583
00:47:23,838 --> 00:47:26,360
I believe in a move where

1584
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:27,760
the slippery slope tends to

1585
00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:29,862
be criminalization and

1586
00:47:29,963 --> 00:47:31,744
targeting of individuals.

1587
00:47:31,804 --> 00:47:33,306
And so that's one of the

1588
00:47:33,826 --> 00:47:35,186
things that mostly concerns

1589
00:47:35,226 --> 00:47:36,809
me as we move forward

1590
00:47:36,849 --> 00:47:38,269
around border enforcement measures.

1591
00:47:39,556 --> 00:47:40,157
Yeah,

1592
00:47:40,197 --> 00:47:42,318
EFF has written a lot about DNA

1593
00:47:42,398 --> 00:47:42,878
collection,

1594
00:47:42,978 --> 00:47:45,018
and it's obviously incredibly troubling,

1595
00:47:45,057 --> 00:47:45,679
in part because it's

1596
00:47:46,018 --> 00:47:47,378
predicated on the idea that

1597
00:47:47,739 --> 00:47:48,478
immigrants in the United

1598
00:47:48,518 --> 00:47:51,619
States are more inclined to commit crimes,

1599
00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:53,681
and therefore we must have all this DNA,

1600
00:47:53,701 --> 00:47:56,061
which is just patently obviously untrue,

1601
00:47:56,121 --> 00:47:57,822
and no statistics support that fact.

1602
00:47:58,501 --> 00:47:59,621
Todd?

1603
00:48:01,222 --> 00:48:02,802
Yeah, just two quick ones.

1604
00:48:03,282 --> 00:48:05,903
One goes along the lie detector from

1605
00:48:07,376 --> 00:48:08,476
Petra that Petra mentioned,

1606
00:48:08,496 --> 00:48:09,137
but the one that was

1607
00:48:09,157 --> 00:48:10,876
developed at the University of Arizona,

1608
00:48:11,237 --> 00:48:12,456
right where I live here in Tucson.

1609
00:48:12,976 --> 00:48:15,478
And it was called the Avatar Kiosk.

1610
00:48:15,498 --> 00:48:17,137
And you put your finger in it, I think,

1611
00:48:17,338 --> 00:48:19,599
and then it tests your physiological,

1612
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:21,579
different physiological

1613
00:48:21,938 --> 00:48:22,960
states that you are in.

1614
00:48:23,340 --> 00:48:23,940
And I thought that was the

1615
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:24,840
most ridiculous thing

1616
00:48:24,860 --> 00:48:26,420
because people get nervous

1617
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:29,320
around immigration control

1618
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,121
no matter what.

1619
00:48:30,340 --> 00:48:32,961
And this kind of terror of

1620
00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:37,443
facing somebody is very omnipresent.

1621
00:48:37,623 --> 00:48:39,425
And also as well,

1622
00:48:39,485 --> 00:48:40,505
along with some of the

1623
00:48:40,525 --> 00:48:41,666
things that Petra was mentioning.

1624
00:48:41,967 --> 00:48:43,489
And one quick thing about the RoboDog,

1625
00:48:45,065 --> 00:48:46,246
I talked extensively with

1626
00:48:46,326 --> 00:48:47,246
one of the vendors of the

1627
00:48:47,266 --> 00:48:49,208
RoboDog for ghost robotics.

1628
00:48:50,168 --> 00:48:52,489
And ghost robotics, what was their slogan?

1629
00:48:53,070 --> 00:48:55,891
It's robots that feel the world.

1630
00:48:56,311 --> 00:48:57,532
That's their slogan.

1631
00:48:58,193 --> 00:48:58,873
But he showed me,

1632
00:48:59,074 --> 00:49:00,835
he started showing me how

1633
00:49:00,954 --> 00:49:02,036
you could weaponize the

1634
00:49:02,076 --> 00:49:04,237
RoboDog and insert a machine gun on it.

1635
00:49:04,726 --> 00:49:05,967
And then he showed me like

1636
00:49:06,248 --> 00:49:07,628
how they use the algorithms

1637
00:49:07,708 --> 00:49:09,231
and artificial intelligence.

1638
00:49:09,911 --> 00:49:10,791
And, uh,

1639
00:49:10,831 --> 00:49:12,393
so he was showing me on his phone

1640
00:49:12,632 --> 00:49:14,195
and a tablet on a tablet

1641
00:49:14,735 --> 00:49:16,677
and showing a robo dog that

1642
00:49:16,717 --> 00:49:17,677
was wandering about.

1643
00:49:17,838 --> 00:49:18,617
And then all of a sudden all

1644
00:49:18,637 --> 00:49:21,621
these red squares were appearing and said,

1645
00:49:21,721 --> 00:49:25,202
oh yeah, the AI is detecting targets.

1646
00:49:25,284 --> 00:49:25,864
And then I looked,

1647
00:49:26,304 --> 00:49:28,005
he probably saw my look of astonishment.

1648
00:49:28,065 --> 00:49:29,887
Cause then he said, don't worry.

1649
00:49:29,967 --> 00:49:32,268
You know, we, we pulled the trigger.

1650
00:49:32,509 --> 00:49:33,250
We, but the.

1651
00:49:33,637 --> 00:49:36,043
So that kind of sort of combination of AI,

1652
00:49:36,423 --> 00:49:38,268
the RoboDog drone thing,

1653
00:49:38,487 --> 00:49:40,411
and the sort of terror that

1654
00:49:40,472 --> 00:49:44,900
just accompanies all of this.

1655
00:49:44,981 --> 00:49:45,242
Yeah.

1656
00:49:46,367 --> 00:49:48,090
So here's a really interesting question.

1657
00:49:49,349 --> 00:49:50,851
What regions or communities

1658
00:49:50,992 --> 00:49:51,972
on the border should we be

1659
00:49:52,012 --> 00:49:53,293
talking more about?

1660
00:49:54,213 --> 00:49:55,394
And I will open this up

1661
00:49:55,635 --> 00:49:57,016
beyond the U.S.-Mexico border,

1662
00:49:57,056 --> 00:49:57,496
if you'd like,

1663
00:49:57,536 --> 00:49:58,277
if you want to talk about

1664
00:49:58,577 --> 00:49:59,418
the Canadian border,

1665
00:49:59,438 --> 00:50:00,438
if you want to talk about

1666
00:50:01,179 --> 00:50:02,599
Europe or somewhere else in the world.

1667
00:50:03,179 --> 00:50:04,240
So what regions,

1668
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,822
what border regions do you

1669
00:50:05,862 --> 00:50:06,682
think people aren't talking

1670
00:50:06,702 --> 00:50:07,603
enough about that we should

1671
00:50:07,623 --> 00:50:08,643
be paying more attention to?

1672
00:50:08,684 --> 00:50:10,105
Let's start with you, Pedro.

1673
00:50:14,153 --> 00:50:14,655
I would say from the

1674
00:50:14,695 --> 00:50:16,215
perspective of the US-Mexico border,

1675
00:50:16,275 --> 00:50:18,016
I would say areas that have

1676
00:50:18,097 --> 00:50:19,577
fewer organizations that

1677
00:50:19,637 --> 00:50:22,278
are concerned outright and

1678
00:50:22,318 --> 00:50:23,500
are not as well resourced

1679
00:50:23,539 --> 00:50:25,181
to address these issues.

1680
00:50:25,201 --> 00:50:26,862
So if we look at California, for instance,

1681
00:50:27,141 --> 00:50:29,184
the Imperial County just

1682
00:50:29,244 --> 00:50:30,344
does not have the same

1683
00:50:30,423 --> 00:50:31,485
support networks that one

1684
00:50:31,505 --> 00:50:33,405
would want to have and

1685
00:50:33,606 --> 00:50:35,708
tends to be overlooked when it comes to

1686
00:50:36,467 --> 00:50:38,108
funding tends to be

1687
00:50:38,628 --> 00:50:39,909
overlooked when it comes to

1688
00:50:40,449 --> 00:50:41,849
even just resources.

1689
00:50:42,070 --> 00:50:43,391
There's the Imperial County

1690
00:50:44,891 --> 00:50:45,992
detention facility that's

1691
00:50:46,032 --> 00:50:47,432
located there that's much

1692
00:50:47,492 --> 00:50:48,813
more difficult to access,

1693
00:50:48,893 --> 00:50:50,733
even for attorneys who are

1694
00:50:50,753 --> 00:50:51,675
representing people that

1695
00:50:51,715 --> 00:50:52,474
are detained there.

1696
00:50:52,514 --> 00:50:54,335
And so being able to access

1697
00:50:54,356 --> 00:50:56,356
these remote areas where

1698
00:50:56,376 --> 00:50:59,657
there aren't a lot of resources and

1699
00:51:00,389 --> 00:51:01,733
and where poverty tends to

1700
00:51:01,773 --> 00:51:04,757
be a bigger real life issue

1701
00:51:04,797 --> 00:51:07,483
that impacts people's daily lives.

1702
00:51:08,143 --> 00:51:09,226
And where I would see then

1703
00:51:09,855 --> 00:51:10,835
implementation of

1704
00:51:11,135 --> 00:51:12,318
surveillance technologies

1705
00:51:12,358 --> 00:51:15,159
becomes an easier way of

1706
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,802
pushing where there isn't

1707
00:51:17,862 --> 00:51:19,684
as much resistance

1708
00:51:19,844 --> 00:51:21,726
precisely because the

1709
00:51:21,766 --> 00:51:23,389
resources aren't there to

1710
00:51:23,628 --> 00:51:24,809
resist that technology.

1711
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:26,311
I've been in conversation

1712
00:51:26,871 --> 00:51:28,012
with colleagues there in

1713
00:51:28,052 --> 00:51:30,356
the past and just the amount of

1714
00:51:31,077 --> 00:51:32,599
of support that they need is tremendous.

1715
00:51:32,659 --> 00:51:34,141
And oftentimes we aren't

1716
00:51:34,201 --> 00:51:35,443
able to provide that support,

1717
00:51:36,023 --> 00:51:37,123
but they don't necessarily

1718
00:51:37,164 --> 00:51:38,606
have the resources to move

1719
00:51:39,427 --> 00:51:40,226
forward in the way that

1720
00:51:40,246 --> 00:51:40,907
they would want to.

1721
00:51:42,809 --> 00:51:46,454
Todd?

1722
00:51:46,614 --> 00:51:47,494
Plenty of places to say.

1723
00:51:47,594 --> 00:51:49,817
I might say both the

1724
00:51:50,237 --> 00:51:52,119
US-Canada border and also

1725
00:51:52,219 --> 00:51:54,461
the Mexico-Guatemala border.

1726
00:51:54,992 --> 00:51:56,733
a U.S.-Canada border in the

1727
00:51:56,793 --> 00:51:58,175
sense that you're in the

1728
00:51:58,695 --> 00:51:59,615
hundred mile zones.

1729
00:51:59,876 --> 00:52:02,677
I did some research in some

1730
00:52:02,737 --> 00:52:04,059
counties right along the

1731
00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:08,182
New York border on Lake Ontario and

1732
00:52:09,206 --> 00:52:10,527
And like farm workers,

1733
00:52:10,748 --> 00:52:12,028
undocumented farm workers

1734
00:52:12,289 --> 00:52:13,530
were getting targeted by

1735
00:52:13,610 --> 00:52:14,451
border patrol who were

1736
00:52:14,510 --> 00:52:15,251
operating in the area

1737
00:52:15,291 --> 00:52:16,293
because of the border,

1738
00:52:16,353 --> 00:52:17,034
but they were actually

1739
00:52:17,074 --> 00:52:18,375
doing internal enforcement.

1740
00:52:18,715 --> 00:52:20,757
And also the consistent

1741
00:52:20,777 --> 00:52:23,858
presence in Amtrak stations

1742
00:52:23,878 --> 00:52:25,039
and Greyhound stations and

1743
00:52:25,059 --> 00:52:25,840
looking for people.

1744
00:52:26,793 --> 00:52:27,675
all along the border.

1745
00:52:27,755 --> 00:52:28,675
And there's technology.

1746
00:52:28,735 --> 00:52:30,436
You have the different

1747
00:52:30,476 --> 00:52:33,297
camera systems and those sorts of things.

1748
00:52:34,777 --> 00:52:36,097
And also that I would say

1749
00:52:36,137 --> 00:52:37,298
Mexico-Guatemala border too,

1750
00:52:37,338 --> 00:52:37,998
because the U.S.

1751
00:52:38,018 --> 00:52:39,380
border's extension,

1752
00:52:39,780 --> 00:52:41,521
that extension of the U.S.

1753
00:52:41,561 --> 00:52:41,920
border,

1754
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,023
the propelling of it into Mexico

1755
00:52:46,682 --> 00:52:50,103
and its training and resource transfers,

1756
00:52:50,123 --> 00:52:51,485
including technologies to

1757
00:52:51,505 --> 00:52:53,226
the Mexican government in

1758
00:52:53,246 --> 00:52:54,865
the South and how that's

1759
00:52:54,905 --> 00:52:55,887
become one of the big,

1760
00:52:56,367 --> 00:52:58,228
huge, I guess you can call it,

1761
00:52:58,268 --> 00:52:59,608
fronts of the US border.

1762
00:53:00,130 --> 00:53:01,431
Those are two places I would

1763
00:53:01,891 --> 00:53:03,092
definitely keep an eye on,

1764
00:53:03,172 --> 00:53:04,251
especially going forward in

1765
00:53:04,271 --> 00:53:05,233
the Trump administration,

1766
00:53:05,273 --> 00:53:07,914
since a lot of focus is

1767
00:53:08,094 --> 00:53:10,476
only in certain places.

1768
00:53:10,597 --> 00:53:11,097
And Petra?

1769
00:53:12,438 --> 00:53:13,338
And I would actually broaden

1770
00:53:13,378 --> 00:53:14,760
it out even further and

1771
00:53:15,101 --> 00:53:16,302
maybe remind us of the

1772
00:53:16,362 --> 00:53:18,085
linkages between border

1773
00:53:18,125 --> 00:53:19,106
violence and border

1774
00:53:19,146 --> 00:53:20,789
subjugation and spaces of

1775
00:53:20,849 --> 00:53:23,291
occupation like Palestine, like Kashmir,

1776
00:53:23,351 --> 00:53:24,813
but also ongoing conflicts

1777
00:53:24,853 --> 00:53:25,994
in Sudan and Congo.

1778
00:53:26,034 --> 00:53:27,356
I mean, this is all tied to

1779
00:53:27,931 --> 00:53:29,391
a particular world order

1780
00:53:29,552 --> 00:53:30,932
that's predicated again on

1781
00:53:31,132 --> 00:53:32,373
massive power differentials.

1782
00:53:32,432 --> 00:53:33,632
And there's also another

1783
00:53:33,672 --> 00:53:34,353
element which we haven't

1784
00:53:34,373 --> 00:53:35,092
really touched on and

1785
00:53:35,112 --> 00:53:36,213
that's the labor element.

1786
00:53:36,293 --> 00:53:38,673
The fact that AI and labor

1787
00:53:38,853 --> 00:53:39,994
really go hand in hand when

1788
00:53:40,034 --> 00:53:42,094
we think about how much

1789
00:53:42,795 --> 00:53:44,155
data we need to actually

1790
00:53:44,215 --> 00:53:45,655
power a lot of the systems

1791
00:53:45,695 --> 00:53:47,815
that the global north relies on.

1792
00:53:48,175 --> 00:53:49,115
And much of this labor

1793
00:53:49,155 --> 00:53:52,297
happens in places like East Africa,

1794
00:53:52,336 --> 00:53:54,077
for example, Bangladesh, India.

1795
00:53:54,556 --> 00:53:55,838
where people are doing

1796
00:53:55,898 --> 00:53:56,858
really terrible work,

1797
00:53:56,918 --> 00:53:58,019
either when it comes to

1798
00:53:59,260 --> 00:54:01,503
content moderation or data

1799
00:54:01,543 --> 00:54:04,065
exploitation and other ways for pennies,

1800
00:54:04,425 --> 00:54:05,527
not to mention, again,

1801
00:54:05,547 --> 00:54:07,307
the kind of just

1802
00:54:07,427 --> 00:54:08,668
geopolitics that go into

1803
00:54:08,708 --> 00:54:09,849
what people have rightly

1804
00:54:09,889 --> 00:54:12,032
called neocolonialism or

1805
00:54:12,072 --> 00:54:14,134
data colonialism in these spaces.

1806
00:54:14,293 --> 00:54:15,315
So labor issues, I think,

1807
00:54:15,355 --> 00:54:16,456
are also important to think about.

1808
00:54:17,762 --> 00:54:19,222
Yeah, excellent.

1809
00:54:19,282 --> 00:54:19,744
Thank you.

1810
00:54:20,264 --> 00:54:21,045
And we're going to move to

1811
00:54:21,085 --> 00:54:22,286
the final question now and

1812
00:54:22,306 --> 00:54:25,289
hopefully end on a little bit of hope,

1813
00:54:25,309 --> 00:54:26,710
which is the question is,

1814
00:54:26,809 --> 00:54:27,811
what are the most important

1815
00:54:27,831 --> 00:54:28,791
things we can do right now

1816
00:54:28,811 --> 00:54:30,132
to protect vulnerable

1817
00:54:30,152 --> 00:54:31,974
communities or encourage

1818
00:54:32,054 --> 00:54:33,235
change at the border?

1819
00:54:33,695 --> 00:54:35,438
And I'll broaden that also to say,

1820
00:54:35,757 --> 00:54:35,998
you know,

1821
00:54:36,338 --> 00:54:38,159
what are efforts that you see

1822
00:54:38,219 --> 00:54:39,161
happening right now that

1823
00:54:39,181 --> 00:54:40,983
are kind of giving you hope?

1824
00:54:41,402 --> 00:54:42,184
Petra, we'll start with you.

1825
00:54:45,878 --> 00:54:48,940
I would say that as much as possible,

1826
00:54:49,521 --> 00:54:50,081
something that we've been

1827
00:54:50,121 --> 00:54:52,905
doing has been hosting Know

1828
00:54:52,945 --> 00:54:54,266
Your Rights presentations.

1829
00:54:54,726 --> 00:54:55,927
And the Know Your Rights presentations,

1830
00:54:55,967 --> 00:54:56,447
typically,

1831
00:54:57,489 --> 00:55:00,010
these were being held with

1832
00:55:00,512 --> 00:55:02,592
undocumented community members.

1833
00:55:02,653 --> 00:55:03,755
But now, I mean,

1834
00:55:03,775 --> 00:55:06,336
the interest is so vast

1835
00:55:06,376 --> 00:55:09,320
that we're doing presentations to schools,

1836
00:55:09,380 --> 00:55:11,902
to churches, to even museums.

1837
00:55:12,382 --> 00:55:14,103
people that understand that

1838
00:55:14,123 --> 00:55:15,744
the implications of when

1839
00:55:15,885 --> 00:55:17,606
some specific individuals

1840
00:55:17,646 --> 00:55:18,547
are targeted because they

1841
00:55:18,588 --> 00:55:20,528
have a different

1842
00:55:21,228 --> 00:55:23,291
relationship with the nation state,

1843
00:55:23,710 --> 00:55:24,751
that they too can be

1844
00:55:24,851 --> 00:55:26,152
eventually targeted as

1845
00:55:26,213 --> 00:55:27,273
we've seen in different

1846
00:55:27,293 --> 00:55:28,954
cases around the country.

1847
00:55:29,454 --> 00:55:32,077
And so as much as we're able

1848
00:55:32,117 --> 00:55:33,458
to generalize the concept

1849
00:55:33,478 --> 00:55:35,340
that we have rights and

1850
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,101
that we have the ability to

1851
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:38,382
enforce those rights and to

1852
00:55:38,541 --> 00:55:39,563
exert those rights

1853
00:55:40,043 --> 00:55:42,945
in moments where they might be questioned.

1854
00:55:43,005 --> 00:55:44,545
I think that offers some

1855
00:55:44,606 --> 00:55:46,588
hope for people that might

1856
00:55:46,608 --> 00:55:47,148
be in a much more

1857
00:55:47,168 --> 00:55:48,369
vulnerable situation to be

1858
00:55:48,409 --> 00:55:50,150
able to defend those rights.

1859
00:55:50,170 --> 00:55:50,811
So what we say,

1860
00:55:50,851 --> 00:55:52,331
it's not only important to

1861
00:55:52,371 --> 00:55:53,253
know what your rights are,

1862
00:55:53,632 --> 00:55:55,735
but understand how to defend them.

1863
00:55:57,476 --> 00:55:57,775
Yes.

1864
00:55:58,135 --> 00:55:58,856
And from what I understand,

1865
00:55:58,876 --> 00:56:00,217
those trainings around the

1866
00:56:00,237 --> 00:56:00,838
country have been

1867
00:56:01,818 --> 00:56:04,760
particularly effective in some places.

1868
00:56:04,780 --> 00:56:05,362
Yeah.

1869
00:56:05,382 --> 00:56:05,641
Petra.

1870
00:56:09,115 --> 00:56:11,119
I think what gives me hope

1871
00:56:11,278 --> 00:56:14,443
is to also think about who

1872
00:56:14,483 --> 00:56:16,206
actually gets to determine

1873
00:56:16,226 --> 00:56:17,626
what we innovate on and why,

1874
00:56:17,748 --> 00:56:19,088
and who gets to imagine a

1875
00:56:19,128 --> 00:56:19,809
different world.

1876
00:56:19,909 --> 00:56:20,731
And a lot of this, I think,

1877
00:56:20,771 --> 00:56:21,833
is actually conversations

1878
00:56:21,873 --> 00:56:23,554
about also who counts as an expert.

1879
00:56:24,115 --> 00:56:25,998
We really need to make space

1880
00:56:26,057 --> 00:56:27,559
for expertise that is

1881
00:56:27,619 --> 00:56:28,920
coming from the ground and

1882
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:29,740
coming from affected

1883
00:56:29,780 --> 00:56:31,302
communities first and foremost.

1884
00:56:32,342 --> 00:56:32,943
This is something that we

1885
00:56:32,983 --> 00:56:33,744
try and do in one of the

1886
00:56:33,784 --> 00:56:35,106
projects we incubate at the

1887
00:56:35,126 --> 00:56:36,206
refugee law lab called the

1888
00:56:36,246 --> 00:56:37,568
Migration Technology Monitor,

1889
00:56:37,648 --> 00:56:38,367
where we work with

1890
00:56:38,407 --> 00:56:39,389
colleagues on the move who

1891
00:56:39,449 --> 00:56:40,811
are currently in situations

1892
00:56:40,831 --> 00:56:41,610
of displacement,

1893
00:56:41,731 --> 00:56:42,972
doing their own work on

1894
00:56:43,052 --> 00:56:44,954
borders and surveillance and technology.

1895
00:56:45,454 --> 00:56:46,375
Because it is also the

1896
00:56:46,434 --> 00:56:47,356
politics of knowledge

1897
00:56:47,396 --> 00:56:49,217
production and who gets to, again,

1898
00:56:49,518 --> 00:56:51,360
take up space to talk about these issues.

1899
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:53,481
And I think we can and

1900
00:56:53,521 --> 00:56:54,581
should work differently

1901
00:56:55,541 --> 00:56:56,282
because there's so much

1902
00:56:56,342 --> 00:56:58,023
expertise that's on the ground already.

1903
00:56:59,364 --> 00:56:59,585
Yeah,

1904
00:56:59,684 --> 00:57:01,206
and I think that's one of the things

1905
00:57:01,266 --> 00:57:03,648
that motivated us to spend

1906
00:57:03,708 --> 00:57:05,708
a lot of time on both sides

1907
00:57:05,728 --> 00:57:06,570
of the border talking to

1908
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:08,010
people and hearing from

1909
00:57:08,291 --> 00:57:09,731
people who are very much

1910
00:57:10,112 --> 00:57:11,592
experts and will know more

1911
00:57:11,672 --> 00:57:13,153
about the power and

1912
00:57:13,293 --> 00:57:15,014
differentials in the border

1913
00:57:15,114 --> 00:57:15,614
and about border

1914
00:57:15,635 --> 00:57:18,277
surveillance than I ever will.

1915
00:57:18,456 --> 00:57:19,697
Yeah, Todd.

1916
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:23,800
I mean, honestly, I mean,

1917
00:57:23,820 --> 00:57:25,981
all the work that all of you are doing,

1918
00:57:26,362 --> 00:57:28,043
like what Petro has just mentioned,

1919
00:57:28,063 --> 00:57:31,887
Migration Technology Monitor, and Pedro,

1920
00:57:31,907 --> 00:57:33,708
what Pedro does at AFSC,

1921
00:57:34,068 --> 00:57:35,429
and what you do at EFF.

1922
00:57:35,570 --> 00:57:35,769
I mean,

1923
00:57:35,809 --> 00:57:38,431
those are some seriously really

1924
00:57:38,452 --> 00:57:42,135
important examples of pushing back.

1925
00:57:42,516 --> 00:57:43,996
And I just want to say also,

1926
00:57:44,356 --> 00:57:46,099
when you take the border

1927
00:57:46,139 --> 00:57:47,659
systems internationally and

1928
00:57:47,699 --> 00:57:49,521
look at them for what they are,

1929
00:57:49,822 --> 00:57:50,682
I can see them as...

1930
00:57:51,322 --> 00:57:52,965
like this massive

1931
00:57:53,005 --> 00:57:55,608
scaffolding of for a status

1932
00:57:55,648 --> 00:57:58,170
quo of a of an unjust world

1933
00:57:58,351 --> 00:57:59,693
right there's a one way

1934
00:57:59,733 --> 00:58:00,673
that this unjust world

1935
00:58:00,713 --> 00:58:03,217
keeps on going forth and

1936
00:58:03,557 --> 00:58:05,519
the importance I see of um

1937
00:58:06,661 --> 00:58:08,983
of you know of certainly

1938
00:58:09,023 --> 00:58:10,222
that's sort of undermining

1939
00:58:10,262 --> 00:58:11,422
that and maybe that's

1940
00:58:11,463 --> 00:58:13,603
through a lot of you know

1941
00:58:13,664 --> 00:58:14,684
what petro is talking about

1942
00:58:14,784 --> 00:58:17,224
in terms of cross-border

1943
00:58:18,085 --> 00:58:19,246
collaborations and

1944
00:58:19,286 --> 00:58:21,226
movements and solidarity

1945
00:58:21,346 --> 00:58:22,927
and that those the sort of

1946
00:58:23,086 --> 00:58:23,827
I think the sort of

1947
00:58:23,927 --> 00:58:26,947
internationalization of movements is

1948
00:58:27,639 --> 00:58:28,922
is you can see it here and

1949
00:58:28,942 --> 00:58:30,063
there in different

1950
00:58:30,103 --> 00:58:32,324
collaborations and that's I

1951
00:58:32,364 --> 00:58:34,126
think that that that gives

1952
00:58:34,188 --> 00:58:35,768
me you know that would give

1953
00:58:35,809 --> 00:58:37,070
me the most hope going

1954
00:58:37,110 --> 00:58:38,411
forward that's those sorts

1955
00:58:38,452 --> 00:58:40,353
of challenges to this

1956
00:58:40,534 --> 00:58:41,695
structure of borders that

1957
00:58:41,735 --> 00:58:42,936
we find ourselves in right

1958
00:58:42,976 --> 00:58:46,922
now yeah well thank you so much

1959
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:48,442
for being here and coming to

1960
00:58:48,501 --> 00:58:51,143
talk about this and for

1961
00:58:51,463 --> 00:58:52,824
acknowledging the work that

1962
00:58:52,983 --> 00:58:54,724
EFF has been doing over the

1963
00:58:54,846 --> 00:58:57,766
last few years and the new

1964
00:58:57,827 --> 00:58:59,327
exhibit that is coming out

1965
00:58:59,387 --> 00:59:00,929
right now that just opened

1966
00:59:00,969 --> 00:59:01,849
on Angel Island.

1967
00:59:02,230 --> 00:59:04,150
And I hope somehow all of

1968
00:59:04,170 --> 00:59:05,431
you will get a chance to go

1969
00:59:05,847 --> 00:59:06,869
take the ferry out to Angel

1970
00:59:06,909 --> 00:59:08,050
Islands and see it.

1971
00:59:08,489 --> 00:59:11,172
But that's all that we have time for.

1972
00:59:11,192 --> 00:59:13,353
I want to officially thank Dave, Todd,

1973
00:59:13,434 --> 00:59:15,275
Pedro, and Petra for joining us today.

1974
00:59:15,695 --> 00:59:16,976
And thank you all to

1975
00:59:17,036 --> 00:59:18,297
everyone who contributed to

1976
00:59:18,318 --> 00:59:19,478
the discussion in the chat

1977
00:59:19,778 --> 00:59:20,820
and all the great questions

1978
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,661
and everybody watching today.

1979
00:59:23,282 --> 00:59:24,862
Digital rights begin with you.

1980
00:59:25,282 --> 00:59:27,025
EFF has been a leader in privacy,

1981
00:59:27,065 --> 00:59:28,445
freedom of expression,

1982
00:59:28,865 --> 00:59:30,547
and innovation for thirty four years,

1983
00:59:30,626 --> 00:59:31,668
and we need your help to

1984
00:59:31,728 --> 00:59:32,648
keep up the fight.

1985
00:59:33,009 --> 00:59:34,148
So please become a member

1986
00:59:34,210 --> 00:59:37,110
today at EFF.org slash border support.

1987
00:59:37,632 --> 00:59:39,253
A new URL just for today.

1988
00:59:39,853 --> 00:59:41,074
We hope you will continue

1989
00:59:41,134 --> 00:59:42,135
these conversations with

1990
00:59:42,155 --> 00:59:42,875
your civil liberties,

1991
00:59:43,454 --> 00:59:44,436
with your civil liberties

1992
00:59:45,197 --> 00:59:46,777
colleagues and your friends.

1993
00:59:47,097 --> 00:59:47,978
Be sure to keep an eye out

1994
00:59:48,018 --> 00:59:49,659
for future events by

1995
00:59:49,699 --> 00:59:51,621
visiting EFF.org slash events.

1996
00:59:51,740 --> 00:59:53,121
And thank you all for joining.

1997
00:59:53,181 --> 00:59:54,922
And we'll see you next time

1998
00:59:55,682 --> 00:59:57,824
for another EFF live event.

1999
00:59:58,365 --> 00:59:58,889
Thank you all.